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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 7:50am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tha'd be one hell of a slow rep (??????) Honestly, I don't see how someone can hoist something like a swing for more than 1.5 seconds. I admit I've never used a KB, but I regularly do swings with 50-60lbs dumbells, both with one hand or throwing them up to switch hands. And the timing is pretty regular, about a sec.

    The movement itself leads to that tempo. Having the arm fully (or nearly fully) stretched out doesn't allow a slow eccentric or concentric, it can't be held on the top, and certainly can't be held at the bottom either. Me no get it.

    --- EDIT --

    Hhmmmm, I just timed myself with a 50lbs dumbbell for shits and giggles, and indeed, the swinging motion indeed consistently takes about 2 seconds, not 1 sec or 1.5 sec as I previously thought. I'd suspect it would slow down as the tabata sets progress.

    Also, in this clip, pple consistently swing a 24k kb almost every 2 seconds in tabata rounds (observer the time and the swing.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmDKInntXb8


    I'm still not sure, however, how it could be slow down to 2.5 seconds, though. Also, even if a rep takes more than 3-4 seconds, that same exercise can still be used for tabatas.

    Tabatas do not literaly mean "seek the exercises that can be done faster to accumulate the maximum number of reps in a 20 sec interval." It means "do as much work as possible in a 20 sec interval."

    A rep of mountain climbers, push ups or pedaling revolutions in a stationary bike always be faster than a rep of power cleans to push press (the later could even go to 3-5 seconds under fatigue.) And yet, they are both suitable for tabatas (people used them all the time.)

    Doing a maximum effort of work in 10sec, 20 sec, or 90sec is not dependend on the time required to perform a rep, but in the amount power required to generate each rep times the number of reps performed.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 3/10/2008 8:19am at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. Kambei Shimada is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 8:29am


     Style: Sub-Grap/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Tha'd be one hell of a slow rep (??????) Honestly, I don't see how someone can hoist something like a swing for more than 1.5 seconds. I admit I've never used a KB, but I regularly do swings with 50-60lbs dumbells, both with one hand or throwing them up to switch hands. And the timing is pretty regular, about a sec.

    The movement itself leads to that tempo. Having the arm fully (or nearly fully) stretched out doesn't allow a slow eccentric or concentric, it can't be held on the top, and certainly can't be held at the bottom either. Me no get it.

    --- EDIT --

    Hhmmmm, I just timed myself with a 50lbs dumbbell for shits and giggles, and indeed, the swinging motion indeed consistently takes about 2 seconds, not 1 sec or 1.5 sec as I previously thought. I'd suspect it would slow down as the tabata sets progress.

    Also, in this clip, pple consistently swing a 24k kb almost every 2 seconds in tabata rounds (observer the time and the swing.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmDKInntXb8


    I'm still not sure, however, how it could be slow down to 2.5 seconds, though. Also, even if a rep takes more than 3-4 seconds, that same exercise can still be used for tabatas.

    Tabatas do not literaly mean "seek the exercises that can be done faster to accumulate the maximum number of reps in a 20 sec interval." It means "do as much work as possible in a 20 sec interval."

    A rep of mountain climbers, push ups or pedaling revolutions in a stationary bike always be faster than a rep of power cleans to push press (the later could even go to 3-5 seconds under fatigue.) And yet, they are both suitable for tabatas (people used them all the time.)

    Doing a maximum effort of work in 10sec, 20 sec, or 90sec is not dependend on the time required to perform a rep, but in the amount power required to generate each rep times the number of reps performed.
    This sounds Pretty Cool, I'm Gonna give it a try.

    Luckily for me my Gym just bought a load of Kettlebells.
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 8:33am

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Furthermore on the timing of tabata reps, this guy is doing a tabata set just fine at a 2-sec/rep pace.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6UujQTJ09w

    I'm gonna have to make a new stickie on HIIT, tabata and taku intervals so that people can reference to it.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  4. jasonmichaels is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 12:25pm


     Style: kung fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    girevoy sport training- swings... about 1.7-2.4 seconds per rep.

    With a 24kg or 32kg bell, about eye level, i am at the top end of that ~2.2 second per swing. But I am short.

    trying to rush the swing is a bad idea. this was my point. that's why it's not so hot for tabata.

    watch a good girevik. not crossfit. there's a casual pop of the hips, and the bell floats for a second at clavicle height. it's not lifted up and it's not forced down. it floats, stalls in mid air, and it's not super fast.
  5. Yohan is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 12:30pm


     Style: JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jasonmichaels
    girevoy sport training- swings... about 1.7-2.4 seconds per rep.

    With a 24kg or 32kg bell, about eye level, i am at the top end of that ~2.2 second per swing. But I am short.

    trying to rush the swing is a bad idea. this was my point. that's why it's not so hot for tabata.

    watch a good girevik. not crossfit. there's a casual pop of the hips, and the bell floats for a second at clavicle height. it's not lifted up and it's not forced down. it floats, stalls in mid air, and it's not super fast.
    Hell if you're so hard that kettlebell swings don't make a good interval exercise, just keep it going. Run a 6 minute round instead of a 4 minute round. I'm personally not that hard :D
  6. SFGOON is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 2:07pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @ Teh El Macho - when you do your swings, do you lower the weight between your knees, or do you go just below your groin? The latter way is better IMO, because it puts more training emphasis on the grip and the hips as opposed to the legs and gives you more of the unique training benefits of KBs. If you're going between the knees, you'll get a 2.5 second swing, quad/glute emphasis, and less gripwork.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    You sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth-loon out of Dr. Strangelove.
    Sometimes, we put Ricin in the Cocaine. :ninja7:
  7. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 2:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON
    @ Teh El Macho - when you do your swings, do you lower the weight between your knees, or do you go just below your groin? The latter way is better IMO, because it puts more training emphasis on the grip and the hips as opposed to the legs and gives you more of the unique training benefits of KBs. If you're going between the knees, you'll get a 2.5 second swing, quad/glute emphasis, and less gripwork.
    If he's going for the conditioning of Tabata, wouldn't he be better off hitting the biggest muscle groups (quad/glute) for the highest metabolic load?

    I'm not saying always swing like that, but I thought for Tabata or some other kind of HIIT conditioning we want lots of lactic acid with the biggest muscles we can?
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  8. SFGOON is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 2:56pm


     Style: Systema, BJJ, Arrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ultimately, you want the heart pounding as hard as you can get it. The "short swing" does this better because you're requiring smaller muscles to do more work, even if it's less overall work. Also, you can pull off two short swings in roughly the same time it takes for a "twixt the knees" swing. Overall, the short swing is better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    You sound like a foaming-at-the-mouth-loon out of Dr. Strangelove.
    Sometimes, we put Ricin in the Cocaine. :ninja7:
  9. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2008 3:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SFGOON
    @ Teh El Macho - when you do your swings, do you lower the weight between your knees, or do you go just below your groin? The latter way is better IMO, because it puts more training emphasis on the grip and the hips as opposed to the legs and gives you more of the unique training benefits of KBs. If you're going between the knees, you'll get a 2.5 second swing, quad/glute emphasis, and less gripwork.
    I'll have to film myself to see how I'm doing it. I swing the dumbell as far back between the legs as possible with the side of the forearm close to the elbow reaching the groin, almost as if an a pull-through. I'll give the other form a try, though I suspect the subtle differences in shape and grip between a kb and a plain vanilla dumbbell also play a role in the grip work.

    -- EDIT --

    I'm certain that when I'm using dumbbells. I'm certain the kb's thicker grip and the center of mass being away from the fist would make this more difficult.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 3/10/2008 3:32pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  10. jasonmichaels is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/11/2008 5:42pm


     Style: kung fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan
    Hell if you're so hard that kettlebell swings don't make a good interval exercise, just keep it going. Run a 6 minute round instead of a 4 minute round. I'm personally not that hard :D
    we're on the same page right?

    tabata = 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off for 8 intervals... 4 minutes work.

    even with a 32, this is not that metabolically demanding. That's why I am saying KB swing is not a great idea for tabatas. It's too slow paced.
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