Thread: Swedish Bullshido
1/17/2011 6:56am, #51
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- Jan 2011
I have emailed both Slavo and another colleague to have a look at this thread. Hopefully they will have a look and contribute, rather than little old me bashing out answers.
You understand that depending upon quantity, alcohol inhibits pain receptors and, despite some recreational drugs being classified as stimulants and or depressants, many have the same effect as alcohol in suppressing pain thus, if ‘pain inducement’ is used as part of a self defense system under those circumstances those techniques would become ineffective, not to mention the fact that there’s a degree of the population who have high pain tolerances. Not to mention that adrenalin also naturally blocks the reception of pain to the extremities.
Totally understand about drug use etc. Rather than (well part of) thinking about pain inducement, think also about the attacks being continuous until the threat has ceased and escape or help is available. You are right though, the population is made up all kinds of people with all kinds of pain thresholds etc given this argument wouldnt it therefore be true that any
art or SD system would struggle with these people? We are not offering a
There are several experienced door staff and Law Enforcement Officers on these forums who might have a differing opinion on E.S.D.S based un their own experiences. I say this with respect but, you saying that something is so, doesn't make it true; here we'd like a little more evidence.
I know it doesnt make it so. But, i guess none of the LEO's and door staff
have trained the system, so its difficult to criticise it isn't it. The LEO's and door staff who have used ESDS like it, which is fine if it works for them.
My opinion, based upon being in the military primarily since 1983 and
having been a Prison Officer between stints in the forces, having studied traditional martial arts for over two decades and also now studying BJJ.
You are of course welcome to your opinion, based on your experiences, who am i to argue? I guess what i am thinking is that ESDS is aimed at
a situation e.g. not being armed as in the military, or in the prison service?
But rather as being a tool for a job where simple tools for SP are needed.
Also, as i think you mentioned, your trad MA is not SD or SP. Fair enough.
I mean your BJJ is great, and i respect the skills of that art. But it's a tool for a job isn't it e.g. primarily a sporting one? rather than SD?
Finally, i think, and have always thought that video clips are no way to judge a system. Someone posted the clips here and people form an opinion, and that's ok. This is what happens now isnt it. I could i am sure
point out some very poor links to most martial arts, does that mean that (sometimes) the system is poor?
I wouldn't touch Slavo Godziks system with a barge-pole, at least not without some decent evidence that it does what it claims. But that's just me.
You are of course welcome to your opinion. I would love you to be able to check the system out first hand, would be fun training at least. Never say never though. At least then you could say i tried it, and it was rubbish.
I appreciate that the system from the clips doesnt look much, but
to experience it is different.
1/17/2011 7:21am, #52
The baseline question which quantifies if a system would physically function with degrees of consistancy is:
Is E.S.D.S taught and practiced in an alive manner against opponents who, at some level within the training, fully resist the application of the techniques being studied?
Under such resistance, can those same techniques be successfully applied
If so, can you or anyone point the thread in the direction of video clips of such training?
Thanks"To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".
1/17/2011 10:24am, #53
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- Jan 2011
That is alwas interesting regarding others comments about people. Especially those who never met me before or never did any kind of training with me.
Just to make a few comments: I am involved in martial arts since quite a few years ago. I did Shotokan karate for 4 years in Poland. I also did some judo.
Since 1989 I do work as a police officer. I did a few years in Solna, Gothenburg and now in Uddevalla.
Since 1994 I do teach self defence and arresting tactics for police officers. I am trained to do this by Gothenburg Police Dept. Since 2000 I am also instructor at expandable baton and also firearms instructor.
I did also instructors course in Point Shooting. This course was run by Matt Temkin from USA, who was a student of late Col. rex Applegate.
Since 3 years ago I am also teaching SD and AT to the students at Swedish Police Academy.
I did courses for SWAT team members in different countries. Both myself and my students did courses for SWAT and Antiterrorist squads in Poland and UK just to name a few.
That does not mean by any way that ESDS is their only and official combat method.
Many of my friends who are involved in training with me are very experienced people. It includes a lot of police officers, bodyguards, bouncers etc ...
And a lot of them are practitioners of boxing, karate, muay thai, kung fu and other MA styles.
And no problem I do have letters of reccommendations from different Police Depts, Police Schools in Poland, Courts and Prosecutors Depts regarding I did run courses for them.
The concept I do try to teach is that we should work with open hands, to try to minimise the damage. Also I am trying to make people to understand that the self defence situation is not ending on the streets. It will most often end at the court.
What I do not teach is a stupid way of streetfighting. I do teach people how to defend themselves both on the street and in the court.
However I do not claim I am teaching the only effective way of SD.
Regarding my work experince I also worked 1 year in Poland as a bouncer. 5 years in Sweden as a bouncer and 3 years working at Correctional Centre for Young Criminals.
I did my martial art training with master Erle Montaigue and master James McNeil.
This is my martial art training. That is what I do for fun. I am also doing a lot of running with a full police equipment.
And I am proud of that. Have You done any training with them ? If not how can you judge what they do ?
As mentioned I do not think You attended any of my courses before. So basicly I am a bit surprise you are making comments about that.
However if you are located in Sweden you are more than welcome to visit my place and attend one of my courses.
To make it more atractive I will give you that free of charge. The next course I do arrange will be in the middle of april. After that one a course at the end of May. This one is in Poland. Mostly police officers, soldiers, Law enforcement and bodyguards. We expect about 50 people from Poland, Russia, UK, Holland, South Africa and Sweden.
If you are not a police officer I will arrange so you will be able to attend anyway.
If the 3 days course in Poland is not enough I will arrange for you few more days. Free of charge and accomodation will be on me.
You will definitely have a time to meet people with experience who have a slightly different point of view regarding what I do teach.
Just let me know in time. Also I can send to you a few video clips from both different kind of tests we are doing and also from our training.
PS. You can get in touch with me offline at: firstname.lastname@example.org
1/17/2011 10:33am, #54
Many thanks for joining us in this discussion it is most welcome, let me be the first to welcome you to this website and thank you for your contribution.
If I may I would like to ask you just two questions about what you teach as ESDS
1. What are the main influences of this system / the main origins of the system?
2. Is it taught with aliveness IE partners actively resist the application of techniques on each other?
Thank you."To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".
1/17/2011 12:07pm, #55
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- Jan 2011
My background is in chinese Kung fu so obiously part of that comes from the martial art I learned. For a few years I bekieved I was able to use my skills in real life.
However a situation from my work changed my point of view. While wearing full winter equipment of a police officer I was trying to arrest a violent attacker. It ended with him on top of me, on the ground and almost under the water. My first tought was ****, something is wrong. Than I started to " crawl " on my back away from the attacker, kicking toward him and trying to come away.
That was the start of me thinking. I started later to teach police tactics and started test different methods in full equipment.
Also after a contact with a few instructors I started to include scanario based exrecises.
Regarding the martial art part of what I do teach it includes: Open hand methods and that kind of hitting to different part of the body.
I do recommend to visit: www.ipdta.com You will find some information regarding the concept with pdf material.
The swedish site at www.esds.se includes some material in swedish.
Also included is the information regarding short video clips covering what we are doing. However the video sequences are basicly covering in to show how sensitive the human body is.
So it show a few hits and peoples reaction to those. Those clips are not fakes. Of course those are not done with a full power as we do want people to understand what happens after such a hit.
And of course some theoretical explanation in the form of pdf material makes it easier to understand.
A lot of training is done with scenario based exercises. With different level of verbal and physical aggression. Usually the " bad " guys in exercises are wearing some protective equipment. Usually a regular MC helmet, gloves or pads and protective vest.
Usually defender is not equipped with so much protection.
During defending against threat with firearms we are using RAM system guns. Those are charget bt CO2 bottles and fires a small paint or rubber bullits.
In such a way we are putting some stress in to exercise. The students knows if he will do something wrong than he will directly will be punished by enormous pain.
Usually the most students tryes to avoid that.
By using just a rubber gun there is no fear in exercise.
Exercises are donein different surrondings, with regular equipment people have on their job. So if they are police officers they are doing all their training in full training equipment.
If they are bouncers it is their regular equipment.
The goal of each exercises is to make a participant to succeed. After each exercises we will increase a level of stress to each participant.
During the expandable baton traing we are using a parts of rd man suit or just training batons.
During all the exercises we do have an exercise leader. All the explanations before the exercise, the exercises and comments after the performed exercise are filmed.
Regarding the open hand blows we did test them to the body, to the body equipped with vest, to different kind of helmets. And it is not just me hitting others. The participants are testing those things on each other. However it is just a smal part of the training.
So basicly after quite a few years of training we do have a lot of material covering a lot of realistic, simple and easy to learn self defence.
Part of filmed information is just done as a test. For example crushing car windows with open hand blow. The participants want from time to time find out the power of the blow to other objects.
But we are not doing that as some kind of martial art trick. It came out of a question. So we did it just to test.
Quite a lot of explanation anyway. Sorry for that.
Of course a lot of information we do put on film is open to our members and a big part from time to time to thepublic.
1/17/2011 12:45pm, #56
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- Jan 2011
Just to make a further explanation: I am not selling my own MA system. I do believe that in all pages I do run / the correct number is 2 / I do mention ESDS is not a martial art.
The chineese name for Splashing Hands is San Sou. That what my teacher mentioned to me.
It is nothing mystical. Just pure painfull training.
1/17/2011 12:53pm, #57
1/17/2011 1:02pm, #58
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- Jan 2011
Magazines are just magazines. Rearding names it usually is like this some people you know some not.
The article was written before I started my training with James McNeil.
Also there is no problem I have documents showing I did continued the training with those teachers.
1/17/2011 1:32pm, #59
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- Jan 2011
This is directed to all You swedish guys asking to check my police background.
I do not believe the will let you know so much about it but if you are so interested you have a following options:
1. The direct number to the police in Uddevalla is 0522 - 64 60 00 and ask for somebody who can verify my police identity
2. At the samt time you can ask about somebody who can give you the explanation about my work as police instructor
3. Calling 0522 - 64 60 00 you can ask about the coordinator for the traaining at Police Academy recruits in Trollhättan. He will be able to explain my part of training recruits at police academy
4. Another thing is to visit the www.ipdta.com at that site you will be able to find both the articles and testimonials from different Magazines and Departments.
5. The local newspapper called Bohuslänningen www.bohuslaningen.se printed an article regarding my opinions / point of view about police use of force. That because the problem covering the topic of on custody problems.
6. You could also call Swedish National Police Academy in Solna. The teachers responsible for the training know my name. I attended the regular repetion training course for instructors in Sept 2010
7. The door supervisors group in Västra Götaland / Fyrbodal could answer for my training too as I am in regular manner instructing at their basic and advanced courses.
To explain for other Police is responsible for doorsupervisors / bouncers basic and advanced training.
8. Also at the letterof recommendation you will find addresses and phone numbers to Police Departments in:
' Lancashire Police Dept
' CSP Lgionowo / Police training center outside of Warsaw, Poland. Visited this training center 5 or 6 times
' SP Slupsk / Police Academy in Slupsk, Poland. Visited this school 3 times
' A close friend of mine Marc " Animal " MacYoung is also mentioning both ESDS, IPDTA and IBR - Instinctive Body Reactions in his book " Secrets of Effective Offense "
Marc MacYoung was a lecturer and instructor at COPS International course arranged each year in Poland.
' Martin Cooper, IPDTA rep in UK. Former police officer in UK armed units is also possible to contact regarding the information about what I am doing and my identity.
The different tests I do mention on my site are done both at the police officers and civilians.
As mentioned on my earlier post this information is filmed on video. And also expalined on different pdf material.
If this will not be good enough I will personally give you e-mails to the instructors of different martial arts / self defence systems in other countries like:
' Nethrlands / martial arts instructors
' Scottland / bouncers, KM, wrestling and firearms instructors
' South Africa / PP, former military and special forces members, BG
' Russia / martial arts and SD instructors
' Poland / military, police, BG, martial arts instructors
' Sweden / martial arts, BOXING instructors
' Canada / Law enforcement institutions
However starting with the option in Sweden / Uddevalla, Trollhättan and PHS is a good start.
Of course you are more than welcome to get in touch with me at anytime.
1/17/2011 1:36pm, #60
Now, please look in the corner of the posts. The person you are responding to hasn't been on the website for over a year and a half. Please do not go through every post and answer each individually. Read all the questions and answer in one or two posts.