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  1. Snake Plissken is offline
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    When I Get Back

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 6:07pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DSProtection View Post
    That was the reason I registred in this forum. To be able to read about whats real and whats not.
    You don't need to register to read threads.
  2. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    8/18/2010 6:08pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DSProtection View Post
    I stumbled upon this thread and since I train the system, knows who is training it, and have used some of it myself in my work, I just wanted to explain shortly about it.
    So why havenít you?

    One could learn something from every system or martial art.
    The Yellow Bamboo people thank you for your shout-out.

    About my grammar, well I am Swedish. Not english.
    Yes, so? Iím Swedish; that doesnít excuse me from forming proper sentences.

    Once again, Iīm sorry for writing something about ESDS. It want happen again. I just wanted to explain a little.
    You keep saying that you want to explain, but you keep avoiding actually explaining anything. After reading all of this thread, I doubt itís clear to anyone what ESDS even is, apart from a system that produces bad videos and poor apologists. Maybe itís great, but how the hell are we supposed to know?

    Quote Originally Posted by DSProtection View Post
    And as I said before, my discussion ends here.
    If you say it more than once, it wasnít true to begin with.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: ďdonít go to the groundĒ? ]
    ďThe plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data
  3. bobhope is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/14/2011 11:27am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Folks,

    new to bullshido, and i came across this thread. Phew it's gone on a bit.
    Listen folks Slavo Godziks is a real police officer in Sweden. How do i know, well i travelled to sweden in 2005 to train with him, in the police HQ of the town where he lives. I met him and trained at the station and met some of his police colleagues. So he really is a police officer. Actually when we were training he had to go off and do a shift at work, for you guessed it the police. The I.P.D.T.A and ESDS is a good system put together by people with first rate real world knowledge. A good friend of mine was a DT instructor for the police in my area for years, and worked on the armed response team for years. He is one of the instructors for ESDS. He is the real deal. He, I, We are not interested in BS martial arts. No grades, Gi, or belts etc. He was more than aware of the weaknesses of the stuff that the police are obliged to teach and needed to give officers something simple and effective to learn. That's what ESDS does best.

    I am not and wasnt interested in Slavo's kung fu background, it's something he likes to do as a hobby and interest. It is not hugely related to the system he teaches as part of E.S.D.S. Its just what he has done. Same as most of us have been involved in MA systems over the years.

    The system is based on simple open hand techniques (done so because of being effective and defensable in court) which are gross motor and effective, and hurt like stink too. The videos show some results of the strikes, its just a demo, take it as that.

    Hope this is helpful at starting to dispell the myth of ESDS as Bullshido.
  4. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/14/2011 12:00pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How goes it in Blackpool ?

    Anyway, I think the issue stems primarily from what appears to be these claims:

    Shotokan Karate (4) years and Judo (1 year). Has since 1991 been training martialarts as a senior student with Master Erle Montaigue (Yan Lu Chan Taiji, Dim Mak (BS alarm?) and Qi Gong). He is also a memeber of World Taiji Boxing Association (WTBA). Since 1996 he is a student for Master James McNeil (Splashing Hands, Qi Gong, Irong Hand and Acupressure massage)
    The vast majority of Slavo Godziks background appears to be of Chinese origin apart from the combined 5 years spent studying Karate and Judo so, if as you say, he's the real deal, what is E.S.D.S actually based upon if not heavily influenced by Chinese martial systems ?

    You said..
    The system is based on simple open hand techniques
    Just to reiterate, from what exactly?
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  5. bobhope is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2011 3:46pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    hi,

    All cool here thanks.

    See your point about the origins of the system. It is clear from Slavo's background that the chinese M.A. have played a part in influencing the
    system. However, Dim Mak and pressure points etc have never been a part of ESDS training. I would have run a mile believe me. As i said before
    the chinese arts are an interst of Slavo's, he does seperate that from the
    SD side of the training. I personally have 0 interest in trad MA stuff from whatever background. In relation to the open hands well that (from memory) does come from splashing hands kung fu. What's happened is
    an element of a system has been taken, and has been refined and put in
    SD context. The open hand stuff has also been influenced by the likes of Peter Consterdine, and others is the SD world, who have advocated power slaps for a long time. Again, this is LEO freindly, particularly in the UK.
  6. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/17/2011 2:56am

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok well look at this from my point of view.

    This is all hypothetical:

    I'm an infantry soldier.

    I also hold middle senior dan grades in a martial art which isn't considered useful for self defense but, many who study it will, and have, claimed otherwise. I've trained continuously for 22 years.

    What would people (who might know better) think if I were advertising myself as someone who teaches a system of SD to [whom ever] when my back ground pretty much only accounts for training in non-self-defense-applicable-system(s) ?

    Substitute me for Slavo and the overall picture remains the same.

    Respectfully, the "splashing hands" stuff is laughable - how many times have you pressure tested that ?

    In terms of the "power slaps" again laughable - In between being a professional soldier I spent just over 7 years as a Prison Officer within Cat A Prisons. Between being shanked in the arm (separate occasions) and being outnumbered on occasion, I can't ever remember a situation where, I would have been in a position to deliver the type of "slap" demonstrated in the video clips earlier in the thread without leaving myself wide open.

    In each and every instance where I've been involved in a violent situation, nobody ever was standing still, nobody ever was going to give up a part of their body to allow that sort of strike and, whilst I can imagine that a Police Officer may find themselves in situations where their predicament hasn't escalated into physical violence, when it has, the basic concept is to bring that person into control and that only happens on the ground. Not by slapping a forearm or inner leg, the variables for consistency of such applications are massive.

    I'm not suggesting that being hit on the body in such ways doesn't actually hurt, indeed I can imaging it would be somewhat painful however, I fail to see that applicability of such techniques for LEO.

    Let's talk about simplicity:

    Is something like that going to work on a person fuelled by a skin-full of alcohol ? Unlikely.

    Is something like that going to work on a person fuelled by a class A or some B drug ? Unlikely.

    Ask yourself another question, when was the last time you saw someone really fucking pissed off get taken down using either power slaps or (splashing hands) kung fu ?

    Now, I'm not suggesting that the chap in question is a fake or fraud, what I'm doing is questioning the worth of material being taught. Thus far - with your help, we've established that Slavo Godziks system is influenced by Chinese origins and the likes of Peter Consterdine (who is he, what's his background?)
    Last edited by Rock Ape; 1/17/2011 6:04am at . Reason: Spelling
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  7. bobhope is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/17/2011 4:53am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    12345
    Last edited by It is Fake; 1/17/2011 1:45pm at .
  8. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/17/2011 5:30am

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape
    Let's talk about simplicity:
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape

    Is something like that going to work on a person fuelled by a skin-full of alcohol ? Unlikely.

    Is something like that going to work on a person fuelled by a class A or some B drug ?

    Quote Originally Posted by bobhope
    Yes, and they have been by LEOS and door staff in lots of countries.
    Ok so YOU say. Can you provide me with any other point of reference which will substantiate what's being claimed ?


    You understand that depending upon quantity, alcohol inhibits pain receptors and, despite some recreational drugs being classified as stimulants and or depressants, many have the same effect as alcohol in suppressing pain thus, if ‘pain inducement’ is used as part of a self defense system under those circumstances those techniques would become ineffective, not to mention the fact that there’s a degree of the population who have high pain tolerances. Not to mention that adrenalin also naturally blocks the reception of pain to the extremities.

    I’ve seen a guy accidentally bayoneted in the back of his left thigh because his battle buddy slipped during a live fire mission rehearsal, he didn’t know he’d suffered that injury until he saw it for himself, he just thought he’d been fallen on by his mate. So, there’s a very good example of someone so pumped up on adrenalin and focused on a particular objective, suffering a major injury (not being slapped) and not knowing about it immediately. So much for pain being an incentive ?

    There are several experienced door staff and Law Enforcement Officers on these forums who might have a differing opinion on E.S.D.S based un their own experiences. I say this with respect but, you saying that something is so, doesn't make it true; here we'd like a little more evidence.

    Now, trust me when I say I'm not being hostile toward you but; it isn't for me or anyone else here to go off and do the leg work to prove your point. I realise you're here adding content not representing Slavo Godziks or his system so, I have no drama if/when you get to the stage where you've made your point and there's nothing further to add however, this thread remains in the public domain so that people can make their own informed opinion.

    My opinion, based upon being in the military primarily since 1983 and having been a Prison Officer between stints in the forces, having studied traditional martial arts for over two decades and also now studying BJJ. I wouldn't touch Slavo Godziks system with a barge-pole, at least not without some decent evidence that it does what it claims. But that's just me.

    Dave

    [edited by IIF original content merged with the post below]
    Last edited by It is Fake; 1/17/2011 1:48pm at .
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  9. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/17/2011 5:34am

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WFT happened there ?

    I went to quote you and it appears I edited your post ?

    ****..

    Please accept my apologies there, that wasn't supposed to have happened.bobhope.
    ^^^_______________original content of post #48______________^^^

    I just reported my editing of your post to the admin/moderators of the site.

    It wasn't an intentional act, I used to be a moderator of this forum and it's obvious for some reason some of those features still exist on my account.

    Again please accept my apologies for this mistake on my part.

    FAO Moderators

    If a moderator could cut my edited post out of Bobhopes I'd appreciate it being posted in to one of mine, either this ior the one above it.


    [edited by Iif to fix a mistake by Rock Ape and merged his two posts into this one.]
    Last edited by It is Fake; 1/17/2011 1:50pm at .
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

    ~Ella Wheeler
  10. bobhope is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/17/2011 5:48am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No problem at all.
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