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  1. xeropwr is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 11:28am


     Style: ITF Taekwon-Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I heard a story that the korean government tried to kidnap him acouple times in his own home but instead settled for his two children. They told him to hand over Taekwon-do or they would kill his children and the Gen. told them that they can do what they want he won't give up Taekwon-do. The gen. thought taekwon-do should be shared with everyone not just korea. The government felt differently so for the saftey of him and taekwon-do he exhiled over to canada. Is this story true I don't know but if it is it's pretty F'ed up especially if your his kid.
  2. rainfall is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 11:28am


     Style: mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Miguksaram, great source! ;)

    The funny thing about asking the students of Choi about Choi is they are more likely to spew BS they have been spoonfed. Of course, the opposite is true that many of the articles about Choi are terribly biased against him, to the point that things coming from them are also largely BS.

    My personal opinion, after reading lots and lots about this is that Nam Tae Hi did the teaching because he was the one with the most martial arts skill and knowledge. I must confess right here that I have not met either man (I have met Jhoon Rhee, but that is another story).

    As to his military rank, I wonder if this is in the public domain in Korea. Could it simply be looked up by someone who knows how? Asking anyone, including GM Nam, is unreliable. That could put that issue to rest definitively. His record will either show that he was or he wasn't. The one article that claims to have checked the record, I don't quite trust, it seems far too political and not impartial at all, which I hope we can be.

    - Mst. W: During my conversations with Nam Tae Hi there
    - was no doubt he was a general. I would have to check but
    - I think it was two stars. This came up because I asked GM
    - Nam why General Choi seemed to teach him and other
    - officers who trained the troops but did not teach them
    - directly. GM Nam explained that it just wasn't done to have
    - Generals mix with enlisted men in that fashion. It also
    - surfaced when GM Nam related how he had contact with
    - President Rhee which was only possible due to his rank as a
    - General.

    My problem with the explanation of why he didn't train the troops directly is that I have not seen anything anywhere that said Choi was a general by the time he was in charge of training troops, and it seems that he and Nam were training long before Choi reached the peak of his career. Even people who don't dispute the claim that Choi was a general have him pinned at around Major when he was in charge training people.

    - Mst. W: This was a holdover form the Chung Do Kwan days.
    -A student of Han Cha Kyo I know asked him about this.
    -Remember there was no gear in those days, GM Han's
    -response was simple. Why risk getting banged up if you
    -might need to be 100% in combat at any moment?

    - My own input: This was later changed as safety gear
    - became accessible and Gen. Choi did see the benifit in
    - sparring practice.

    The interview that I quoted was from 1999. I was using sparring gear in 1986, so it seems Choi either publically lied, or in fact, he still didn't advocate sparring.


    - Mst. W: This is a popular story used to discredit General
    -Choi. What is always left out is that the author and short
    -time head of the Chung Do Kwan GM Son was upset because
    -so many high ranking Chung Do Kwan members were
    -following General Choi instead of him . More importantly
    -what is left out is that the very same article also expelled
    -GM Uhm and GM Nam. What happened shortly thereafter?
    -GM Son was out as head of the Chung Do Kwan . GM Uhm
    -became and is still the president and GM Nam is still a
    -respected member.

    -My own input: I have heard both sides of this story. This
    -one breaks down to, if you weren't there, then you just really
    -don't know.

    I think that it isn't left out anywhere that Son wasn't happy about many CDKwan members were going to Choi. In fact, it is very public that they felt Choi was using his position to steal members and weaken the CD Kwan in favor of his odokwan. And in fact, later, once Choi had more power, he weakened the odokwan.

    But I totally agree with you...we weren't there, we will never really know. ;)

    - Mst. W: There is a question if anyone really knew anything
    -about Taekyon or whether it was obliterated by the Japanese
    -There are and were those who claimed to have some
    -knowledge of it and passed it along.

    -My own input: This seemed to be a very popular marketing
    -tool used by a lot of the Koreans at the time of them
    -developing their systems. Taekkyon (though only a folk
    -game) was purely Korean. By saying they learned it, it
    -seemed to give "legitimacy" or a "Korean" connection to
    -their art.

    I agree with you. Once TKD was firmly established though, it seems silly to continue this claim if it isn't true...

    -Mst. W: It does . Like kickboxing and boxing modern TKD
    -fighters flex their knees when they use hand techniques.
    -This is unlike the "keeping everything level" method still in
    -use in traditional Shotokan patterns.

    I suppose there is no use in arguing here. ;)

    -The relationship to the Shotokan forms is not denied. In
    -fact, General Choi included them in the 1965 book. However,
    -these forms are also related to earlier Okinawan forms which
    -are in turn related to the Chinese forms . The point is the
    -forms have parameters which make them unique.

    It is true that all the forms trace back to Chinese forms. The very large difference is that the Chinese origin of Japanese forms is quite well known, but you should see some of the reactions I get when I bring up the fact that the ITF forms' motions are totally contained in Japanese forms (and some are quite similar beginning to end). I even know a guy who practices "Tang Fist Way" (you know what I mean) who told me Tang has nothing to do with China... OK.... I understand that Korean's were desperate for their own identity after having it squashed by the Japanese, and in some respect, they are still trying to figure out their identity and place in the world, however, I just feel enough is enough sometimes....
  3. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 12:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Taekkyon does exist. And a Brigadier General is a General. In Korean, BG=Junjang.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  4. Miguksaram is offline
    Miguksaram's Avatar

    Day Tripper/Dream Weaver

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 2:40pm

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by xeropwr
    I heard a story that the korean government tried to kidnap him acouple times in his own home but instead settled for his two children. They told him to hand over Taekwon-do or they would kill his children and the Gen. told them that they can do what they want he won't give up Taekwon-do. The gen. thought taekwon-do should be shared with everyone not just korea. The government felt differently so for the saftey of him and taekwon-do he exhiled over to canada. Is this story true I don't know but if it is it's pretty F'ed up especially if your his kid.
    Yes, I have heard this myth many times. It is just that....a myth. Most likely perpetuated by the hard core ITF people to try and show their leader in a holier than thou light. Gen. Choi was just a man who didn't play ball with the government and went through some **** and through it developed a nice system. Nothing more, nothing less, he never served time in a Japanese prison, he never escaped the evil clutches of the S.Korean governement who sent their assasins after him. Let's be realistic. This was only martial arts, and martial arts in Korea is mostly looked down upon as a lower level of employment. Mostly gangsters and dumb asses go that route (paraphrased from my wife)
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  5. Miguksaram is offline
    Miguksaram's Avatar

    Day Tripper/Dream Weaver

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    Location
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2003 2:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by The Wastrel
    Taekkyon does exist. And a Brigadier General is a General. In Korean, BG=Junjang.
    Please rest assure that I am not saying Taekkyon didn't exist. All I am saying is a lot of Korean GM's claimed knowledge in it, when it seemed damn near impossible to find a source for it during the Japanese occupation. So either they were very lucky, or they may be very smart in the martketing department.

    Wastrel,
    Do you know if Taekkyon schools keep records of the students? If so, do you think they would have records dating back when these gentleman claim to have learned it?


    Rainfall,

    I am neither disputing nor advocating either side of this. As I have very limited resources to the ITF, it is hard to get to the core of things. Plus there are far too many people who are either pro-ITF or anti-ITF to get unbiased opinoins. So any type of research usually ends up in running into walls.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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