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  1. syberia is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/25/2008 5:59pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    30m pisshaw.:)
    Lol... i know. But i barely did any swimming last year because it was all to expensive and i'm so out of touch now that i'm back home... (<< thats my excuse... sad, isn't it?) ;)

    Different type of swimming altogether...more like rugby in the water.
    I've never thought of it like that...
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/25/2008 6:01pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by syberia
    Lol... i know. But i barely did any swimming last year because it was all to expensive and i'm so out of touch now that i'm back home... (<< thats my excuse... sad, isn't it?) ;)
    You are talking to the guy, who lives in one of the Hottest summertime areas in the US, who hates swimming now.

    You can't be as bad as me.


    I've never thought of it like that...
    Water Polo is the ****.
  3. spamurai13 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2008 8:00pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Crossbolt
    What's a good way to increase the time I can hold my breath? I swim about once a week. Every time I mostly practice swimming completely underwater. I guess I should jsut stick to laps huh? Thanks for posting by the way, it was a good read.
    On swim team we used to do hypoxic drills. Safer than underwater swims because you are not actually submerged in the water, but it does the job just as well.

    You basically start by swimming a lap and counting the number of breaths you take. For the second lap, you decrease the number of breaths but maintain the same pace. continue until you bring your breaths down to one or none. (I agree that sprinters need only 1, 2 breaths at max to race, but distance swimmers cannot maintain that sort of breath rate). once you get to one breath, you can move to intervals and try to do laps with one breath on intervals

    a alternate to that is swimming a lap and counting the number of strokes. then on the next lap decrease the number of strokes. since you are supposed to take a breath in rhythm with your strokes (every 2,3,4 strokes), by decreasing the number of strokes, you will decrease the number of breaths you take. this is a great drill to increase your stroke efficiency.


    Great thread, the OP knows his stuff. Before I got back into MA (did karate from age 5-14) then did swimming and water polo. I think water polo was a decent substitute till I picked up MA again. I got plenty punched kicked and grabbed during those years. I consider water polo the mma of the pool

    i know this is an old thread but like the other posters it made me nostalgic. reasonably priced memberships to pools are hard to find in philadelphia
  4. syberia is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2008 9:02am

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    Quote Originally Posted by spamurai13
    Great thread, the OP knows his stuff
    Thank you. And thanks for adding what you know about Hypoxic drills, i never did much myself, except for coach saying, 'Try not to breath so often, its slowin ya down.' Good times. And not that it really matters, OP is a chick, thats why they asked for pics...

    Before I got back into MA (did karate from age 5-14) then did swimming and water polo. I think water polo was a decent substitute till I picked up MA again. I got plenty punched kicked and grabbed during those years. I consider water polo the mma of the pool
    I never really got into Water Polo, as i said, but i know its hard work.

    i know this is an old thread but like the other posters it made me nostalgic. reasonably priced memberships to pools are hard to find in philadelphia
    Reasnably priced pool memberships are a thing of the past. Except at my pool. They're pretty decent if i do say so myself. And the staff are nicer. [/blatant plug]


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  5. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2008 1:11pm

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    As someone who competed for over a decade in swimming my comment on the whole thread is swimming will help if you're a fatty otherwise not so much.

    Swimming only becomes good exercise when you're swimming hard for an hour and a half. Running is much more efficient.
  6. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2008 2:17pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    As someone who competed for over a decade in swimming my comment on the whole thread is swimming will help if you're a fatty otherwise not so much.

    Swimming only becomes good exercise when you're swimming hard for an hour and a half. Running is much more efficient.
    Care to elaborate on that?
  7. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2008 2:20pm

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    Running, based at least on personal experience and some things I read but don't really remember from a decade ago burns more calories and improves "cardio" more per unit time than swimming.
  8. TheRuss is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2008 3:26pm

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    A few things.

    Part 1: Efficiency

    In terms of energy, "efficiency" is measured as the fraction of work done over energy expended.

    If I spend five kilojoules of energy to do one kilojoule of work (example: lifting 105kg 1 meter up), the efficiency of that movement is 20%. If you spend ten kilojoules of energy to do the same movement (1 kJ of work), the efficiency of your movement is 10%.

    Because "you" are less efficient, "you" have burned more calories.

    Colloquially, one can use "efficient" as a synonym for "effective" when describing an exercise, but this leads to confusion (less energy efficiency = more fat-burning efficiency) and should be avoided.

    Part 2: Biological limitations on exercise volume and intensity

    The upper limit on exercise intensity is the maximum force that the muscles involved can generate. This is a product of several factors, one of which is the availability of ATP to the muscle fibers involved.

    In turn, ATP availability is limited (in general terms) by the body's ability to provide energy to the muscle groups in question.
    In high-intensity (anaerobic) exercise, the energy available is approximated by the amount of ATP and phosphocreatine in each muscle cell.
    In medium-intensity (but still anaerobic) exercise, the muscle's store of glycogen also provides energy, but can only be converted efficiently in the presence of oxygen. When the muscle's demand for energy outstrips the body's supply of oxygen, the glycogen is converted to energy inefficiently by anaerobic glycolysis. Limiting factors here are (approximately) the amount of muscular glycogen, muscular oxygen, and the concentration of waste products from anaerobic glycolysis (lactic acid).
    The transition point between anaerobic and aerobic exercise is determined by the fastest rate at which the body can provide oxygen to the muscles (often referred to as VO2max). Other limits include the body's ability to restore muscular glycogen (from blood sugar, which is restored from liver glycogen, which is restored from fat, etc.), and the body's rate of evacuating waste products can also be a limiting factor.

    We see from this that, within each of these ranges, the intensity and duration of exercise are (roughly) inversely related. Therefore, to maximize the calories consumed during exercise, we would look for the point along the intensity-duration curve where the product of the two is the greatest.

    Part 3: Differences between types of exercises

    Forms of exercises can be differentiated in two related ways.
    1) The peak power that can be developed. This is, to a first approximation, the product of force and velocity. Example: The force-velocity product of your bicep is significantly greater than the force-velocity product of your index finger, therefore it is reasonable to assume that you could generate more peak power from bicep curls than from index finger curls.
    2) The rate at which your body can provide energy (including oxygen) to the muscles used by an exercise. The permeability of different muscle groups to blood oxygen is a bit beyond my level of knowledge, but I think it's safe to say that it'd be related to the surface area of blood vessel - muscle contact. It's probably also sensitive to training.

    My understanding is that VO2max reflects the maximum amount of oxygen that the body can provide to all the muscles in the body. The aerobic exercise with the highest intensity-duration product would be the one where the oxygen that the body can provide to the muscles used in that exercise is the greatest fraction of VO2max.

    For some estimates of the caloric expenditures of different forms of exercises, you could try the ExRx calorie calculator, although I'm not sure where the source data is from.

    Part 4: Other relevant factors in exercise intensity

    In no particular order:
    -Other demands on a subject's time are, in practice, an upper limit on exercise duration.
    -Psychological factors can reduce the intensity and duration of exercise (boredom, fatigue, discomfort, etc.)
    -If the movements of an exercise (or more specifically, a particular subject's movements) tax muscles at different rates than the body can refuel them, the "weakest link" (muscle being taxed most disproportionately) will limit the intensity-duration product of a given exercise.

    Part 5: Limitations of the calories-burned-during-exercise model of exercise

    The "calories burned during exercise" approach has recently been shown to be inadequate, because it does not take into account effects of exercise on resting metabolism - the calories indirectly consumed due to exercise, particularly in terms of recovery. See this thread (multiple relevant posts) for more information.

    Part 6: Comparison of caloric values of food and exercise

    Snickers bar, 57g (USDA NND #19155): 271 kcal.
    170lb man running at 8mph for 15 minutes (according to ExRx calorie calculator): 268kcal.

    One Mars Almond bar. Almost two miles of running. The moral of the story is that (at least by the old model - see Part 5) changes in diet have much greater effects on calorie balance than changes in exercise.

    What it all means:

    An aerobic runner is limited by the rate that the body can provide energy to their legs. A swimmer is limited by the rate that the body can provide energy to their legs and arms. If the swimmer's movements are balanced in terms of arm/leg exertion, the swimmer should have a greater intensity-duration product than the runner.

    Further, as hinted at in Part 5, interval training has shown promise in terms of endurance training and subcutaneous fat reduction well in excess of comparable volumes of steady-state training. It is possible to do interval training with either running or sprinting, but on a personal note, my own mode of "swim two lengths, catch my breath, repeat" may actually be more useful than it seems.
  9. mrm1775 is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2008 8:05pm


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    A couple of months ago I started hitting the pool for about 25 laps three days a week. I hadn't done it for a while but felt I should use it to replace running a few days a week to give my joints a break. The cool thing is that the cross-training has actually made me a faster runner, even though I put in fewer miles on the road now.

    By the way, I dig the new avatar, Sy.
  10. syberia is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2008 10:43pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrm1775
    A couple of months ago I started hitting the pool for about 25 laps three days a week. I hadn't done it for a while but felt I should use it to replace running a few days a week to give my joints a break. The cool thing is that the cross-training has actually made me a faster runner, even though I put in fewer miles on the road now.

    By the way, I dig the new avatar, Sy.
    Thanks, i like it to. Well done on you efforts.


    Further, as hinted at in Part 5, interval training has shown promise in terms of endurance training and subcutaneous fat reduction well in excess of comparable volumes of steady-state training. It is possible to do interval training with either running or sprinting, but on a personal note, my own mode of "swim two lengths, catch my breath, repeat" may actually be more useful than it seems.
    I do interval training while i'm swimming to. Usually its sprint a length and do 2 cool laps and sprint again, or something akin to that, i push it more in summer (it's just spring here) because i'm generally fitter and the pool is longer.

    Umpa, Running may burn more calories and improve cardio because those things are, in part, because you're moving your own weight. In the pool, where youre boyant, the only real force you have to work against is drag- gravity has less effect in the water. I'm no expert on fat burning etc, but i have always felt that swimming should be part of a well rounded exercise schedule, but not perhaps crucial. It doesn't stress the joints, while still providing good cardio and muscular workout.

    Russ probably said that better though, what with all the parts and info.... Thanks for that, it was a good read.


    Chaos? Panic?... Disorder??
    .........................​My work here is done.

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