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**Crushing Step** · Posted On: 8/22/2009 11:55pm

Welcome to Bullshido TT, now get yer butt over to newbietown and say hello!

**Metallon** · Posted On: 1/09/2010 2:54pm

Hmm, still allowed to post here? If not, sorry.

I've read all posts on this thread and by and large, I agree with what is being said here.

I have a brown belt in Songahm and have just joined the instructor's program. I've had a close eye on how students develop and how intructors teach. I've taken the Songahm philosophy and curriculum into account when doing these observations. I haven't even received my new uniform and already I'm starting to regret that I ever joined the instructor's program. I simply don't feel like I can change anything. If three other instructors will pass students that I consider failed their tests then they'll pass. I don't know just exactly how much else I can be taught in this club. During my first year, between white and green belts, I remember the black belts being scary. Because they hit fast, and they hit hard, and I never won against them during sparring. I maybe landed the occasional point, but never got the upper hand. I took a three-year-break, and when I returned, I found that all the old black belts save ONE (the instructor) had left. Instead, there was this new group of black belts that quite frankly had little to no chance against me during sparring.

And just like had been said here before, in Songahm, your belt means nothing. I was a green belt and excelled the black belts at most aspect of Taekwondo, including forms, sparring and that good ol' perserverance. There was a new guy who had trained a year of Shotokan Karate I think, a year younger than I, average weight... and his flying side kicks were by far more powerful than anyone at that class, including the black belts. To me, that's a warning bell. I've seen enough from Songahm to understand that it is, in its current state, a poor choice if you're looking for a martial art, because you are not taught how to fight, nor how to effectively defend yourself. The mental training that I've seen is minimal. You are taught very little about Korean culture, the culture and history of Taekwondo and Taekwondo as an art.

I'm only in Songahm still because I'm already so close to the black belt that I might as well achieve it. I also enjoy weapons training and I find all color-belt forms too easy, so being a black belt may prove some fun for a while. Despite the organization and the martial artäs application being - in my opinion - poor, it has still given me a good basis of combat, speed and some basic grappling. I believe this will carry on rather well when I take up thai boxing and possibly BJJ in the future, after I leave Taekwondo. And the great thing about Songahm is that it leaves lots of personal space and individuality. I never try to do only as good as the man next to me. I always try to outdo myself in every aspect of Taekwondo and of training. I run as fast as I can, kick as hard and fast as I can, do my forms to the best of my abilities and always try to do better the next testing. And my fellow Taekwondo players also happen to be generally very cool guys and girls, and I like them as persons a lot. For what it's worth, most Songahm clubs it seems have great spirit towards each other.

So no, I can't say I regret picking up Songahm Taekwondo. But I will miss the money I had to pay to enroll in a program I now know I'll never finish.

**Balrog** · Posted On: 5/16/2010 2:48pm

Originally Posted by Shu2jack

The ATA is trying to improve the quality of its students. I think the last national testing had a fail rate of over 50%. But I bet 99% of all ATA schools have a pass rate of at least 95%. It is not translating over to the majority of the student base. It is hard to break the cycle. Students are used - sometimes expect - to test every 8 weeks. Testing fees encourage school owners to test students. Instructors are making students' set the goal of a black belt, so students usually want to test as often as possible. It is just not a great system for quality control.

Yes and no.

My last testing had a 100% pass rate. Why? Because I denied permission to test to nearly half the students. They were borderline and had been dogging it. They learned quickly that's not gonna fly and this testing cycle, they are motivated and busting their humps. It was a wakeup call to me as the instructor to not let myself get lax as well.

IMNSHO, a big, big issue with ATA is the confusion of the martial arts training with the business management style. A lot of schools implemented MASS, and that is nothing but User Car Salesmanship 101 as far as I am concerned. In order to make MASS work, they broke the Songahm style to make it fit.

I don't know what it's going to take to fix the organization, but I do know what it took to fix my school: throw MASS out, don't teach on block, emphasize the basics and never forget that our foundation is self-defense.
But that's just me.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 5/17/2010 8:26am

Originally Posted by Balrog

So....you don't think that the ability to perform under stress has anything to do with learning how to defend oneself?

I think the ability to perform a dance under stress has marginal effect on one's ability to defend oneself. Demonstrating a form in front of a group of judges is dancing. Failing someone for freezing during a dance cannot be justified by saying that it will help them learn to defend themselves. It can only be justified by saying they were unable to dance the way they were supposed to.

Originally Posted by Balrog

My point was that if they couldn't handle that low level of stress and perform a simple form, how the heck are they going to perform under major stress with somebody thumping on them? You seem to have totally missed that point.

No, I got the point. However, the point is bullshit.

There is little correlation between the two activities. If you want someone to learn how to handle the stress of a fight, you must subject them to the stress of a fight.

The Marines do not justify teaching someone to march in file as preparing them for the stress of combat. It's an organizational and indoctrinization tool. In order to prepare a Marine for the stress of combat, they are subjected to live fire drills.

If you believe there is a coorelation between the two, provide proof.

**Balrog** · Posted On: 5/18/2010 6:20pm

Originally Posted by Zendokan

Kata/poomse/hyungs have got nothing to do with your ability to fight, the bunkai got so mangled up from it’s journey from China over Okinawa and Japan to Korea that it’s nowadays just “dancing”.
The only way to test a student if he would freeze up in a fight is to put him in a fight and see if he freezes up.

That statement is incorrect. And once again, you have missed the point.

It is not about doing forms. It's about performance under pressure. Period. And I don't need to put someone into a fight situation to find out if they will choke if I see them choke in a low-stress situation. It's a given that they will choke in a high-stress situation.

**hungryjoe** · Posted On: 5/18/2010 6:40pm

Originally Posted by Balrog

That statement is incorrect. And once again, you have missed the point.

It is not about doing forms. It's about performance under pressure. Period. And I don't need to put someone into a fight situation to find out if they will choke if I see them choke in a low-stress situation. It's a given that they will choke in a high-stress situation.

Forgetting the next sequence is not necessarily due to choking.

All those forms to learn in two years or less to get that coveted black belt.

hmmmmm

The biggest stress situation in most ATA schools is parents writing that monthly check, the black belt club, ATA only equipment and testing fees (what, monthly or every six weeks?), etc, etc, etc.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 5/18/2010 6:48pm

It is not about doing forms. It's about performance under pressure. Period. And I don't need to put someone into a fight situation to find out if they will choke if I see them choke in a low-stress situation. It's a given that they will choke in a high-stress situation.

No, it is not.

**brihno360** · Posted On: 5/18/2010 9:21pm

ATA methodology really seems to be all about the money on an organizational level- it's really the Amway of martial arts. Some schools are not this way, my instructor for example does not push me to spend money at the school, however I could not say this for their other students. I have a suspicion that the leadership is afraid that if they actually allowed people to really hit each other at tournaments or in sparring classes that they would lose half of their membership and get sued.

This would cause them to lose money; I also think that if about half the membership left because they were afraid of getting hurt in class that the quality of the org would increase by about half :)

**Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs** · Posted On: 5/19/2010 12:30pm

Originally Posted by Balrog

That statement is incorrect. And once again, you have missed the point.

It is not about doing forms. It's about performance under pressure. Period. And I don't need to put someone into a fight situation to find out if they will choke if I see them choke in a low-stress situation. It's a given that they will choke in a high-stress situation.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but your statement is incorrect.

I used to have a student in Taekwondo who could fight as the best under ITF, WTF and Kyokushin rules.
But he couldn't do one palgwé correct even if his life depended from it. When we did the poomses simultaniously he could do the eight within the 3 wrong minimum. When he had to do them all by himself from palgwé nr 4 it went horrorbly wrong.

I trained more than 30 students from 10th gup to chodan, but he was the only one who couldn't grasp the poomses.
So I only could award him a 1st gup, but he could fight as the best and I always found it unfair that he couldn't go for his chodan because of the lack of the poomses and that he was lower in rank to persons that started after him and weren't as good fighters has him (Fighting is still the nr 1 reason of Combat Sports, else do table tennis).

So when there opened a Full Contact (American Kickboxing) club in my old hometown I suggested that it maybe would be better suited for him.
Last time I heard he was a 2nd degree blackbelt in Full Contact...and still a good fighter.

**Balrog** · Posted On: 5/19/2010 2:10pm

Originally Posted by hungryjoe

Forgetting the next sequence is not necessarily due to choking.

All those forms to learn in two years or less to get that coveted black belt.

hmmmmm

The biggest stress situation in most ATA schools is parents writing that monthly check, the black belt club, ATA only equipment and testing fees (what, monthly or every six weeks?), etc, etc, etc.

Spoken from ignorance.

In any large group of people, you'll have a few that fall on the left side of the bell curve. ATA is no different. However, I hate to bust your bubble, but the majority of ATA schools are no different than any other school. We teach martial arts first. It's only the few that are all about the money that pee in the pool for the rest of us.