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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2010 5:19pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by seekchat View Post

    In what I will call adult martial arts, it takes many years to achieve black belt. Those are for fighters, and I have great respect for the discipline required to achieve the rank. In ATA, children can achieve ATA black belt rank. I don't portray the black belts as "real" black belts to anyone I talk to. I know that the belts were achieved through a children's program designed to teach children how to work hard for and achieve a really great goal.
    You have a ton to learn about martial arts in general if you really believe this justification of "adult" vs. "child" activities.
  2. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2010 12:45pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by seekchat View Post
    ATA is fine as a introduction to martial arts for young children. The bottom line is it all depends on the instructor of the specific school.
    So is a park district..costs less too.
    I would say that depending on the child and the child's goals, a child who wants to learn real-world martial arts should discontinue ATA between the ages of 10 & 12 and move to a "real", or what I would call "adult" school and program.
    That makes no sense at all. If you feel ATA is not a martial art school, "real" or otherwise, why bother spending the money there in the first place? Also, why uproot them and stick them in another school? That only gives a headache to the next instructor who has to break them of specific habits in order to have them learn their system. Plus what message do you send to the kids. You were not really learning martial arts you were just learning to jump around in cute white pajamas?

    I do however, take great exception with the financial part of the ATA. A non-cancelleable contract-based program means that an instructor is completely unaccountable for providing quality instruction.
    First of all most contracts you enter into are considered non-cancelleable. Try buying a car and then tell them you decided not to pay it off. Yes, they will repo the car, but your credit history is shot to hell. Plus schools have to do this because there are flipitant parents who sign Lil' Johnny up for karate lessons because he got a hard on watching Karate Kid, but as soon as he learned he will have to actually work he wants to quit. Health clubs have contracts too. Try just not showing up and say you want to cancel and see how nice they are about it.

    If the instructor is not providing quality instruction you can report him to the BBB. However, the proof will be on your end to prove that he/she is not providing quality instruction. Now if he/she is not even present on the floor and allowing some kid to teach then you can easily make a case. Bottom line is you read the contract and you know the prices and apparently you are willing to pay those prices so you can't really be pissed a the ATA for what they are charging.

    Then came the other surprises: an annual membership fee and testing fees. Those fees were not disclosed at the time that I signed the contract. So I do believe the financial aspect of the ATA is very unethical and unaccountable.
    While it is good business to disclose this information, they do not have to. If your contract did not stipulate you needed to purchase an annual membership, then you do not have to. Same with the belt testing, if you do not want to pay for it then don't. However, if membership is required for Lil' Johnny to promote well then it is your call. Your contract is for instruction in martial arts and you are paying for just that. Nothing more...nothing less. All other activity payments such as testing, tournaments, organizational fees, etc. are seperate and do not have to be disclosed. Unethical...no. Bad business on their part? Yes.
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  3. seekchat is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 5:47pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You have a ton to learn about martial arts in general if you really believe this justification of "adult" vs. "child" activities.
    You have interpreted my posting as justification. It is simply what I was looking for for my kids at a young age - a fun activity, physical excercise, building confidence, enforcing respect for others, and other good characteristics, and at the same time they get to learn some self-defense skills. I wasn't looking for hard-core mnartial arts. I was looking for a physical activity with additional benefits. If you don't want to take my comments at face-value, so be it. If you just want to carry a chip on your shoulder, have fun with that!
  4. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 5:48pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by seekchat View Post
    You have interpreted my posting as justification. It is simply what I was looking for for my kids at a young age - a fun activity, physical excercise, building confidence, enforcing respect for others, and other good characteristics, and at the same time they get to learn some self-defense skills. I wasn't looking for hard-core mnartial arts. I was looking for a physical activity with additional benefits. If you don't want to take my comments at face-value, so be it. If you just want to carry a chip on your shoulder, have fun with that!
    You should probably not post on this website again.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 6:03pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by seekchat View Post
    You have interpreted my posting as justification.
    No, I interpreted it as someone who has only experienced one martial art and has a ton of bias.

    It is simply what I was looking for for my kids at a young age - a fun activity, physical excercise, building confidence, enforcing respect for others, and other good characteristics, and at the same time they get to learn some self-defense skills. I wasn't looking for hard-core mnartial arts. I was looking for a physical activity with additional benefits.
    So, you repeat what you typed while denying it is for justification? Wow. Like I said you have a ton to learn about Martial arts.

    One of the top respected martial arts, Judo, teaches everything you just typed and competes in the similar venues as TKD.

    Hardcore is a strawman used by people that do not understand Martial Arts.


    If you don't want to take my comments at face-value, so be it. If you just want to carry a chip on your shoulder, have fun with that!
    Your comments were taken at face value. You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to martial arts. I said nothing about justification of why you did what you did. You are trying to justify your lack of Martial Understanding.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 12/14/2010 6:26pm at .
  6. seekchat is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 6:24pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Migukclaus View Post
    So is a park district..costs less too.


    That makes no sense at all. If you feel ATA is not a martial art school, "real" or otherwise, why bother spending the money there in the first place? Also, why uproot them and stick them in another school? That only gives a headache to the next instructor who has to break them of specific habits in order to have them learn their system. Plus what message do you send to the kids. You were not really learning martial arts you were just learning to jump around in cute white pajamas?
    Yeah, the park district sports programs...not so impressive. The students/young-adults teaching there don't know the first thing about commitment or respect, much less character-building. I personally found the ATA cost worthwhile, although I did not appreciate the undisclosed costs. My kids learned basic tae kwon do, sans the sweeps and ground fighting. And we are not actually planning on going to another martial arts school. So...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Migukclaus View Post
    First of all most contracts you enter into are considered non-cancelleable. Try buying a car and then tell them you decided not to pay it off. Yes, they will repo the car, but your credit history is shot to hell. Plus schools have to do this because there are flipitant parents who sign Lil' Johnny up for karate lessons because he got a hard on watching Karate Kid, but as soon as he learned he will have to actually work he wants to quit. Health clubs have contracts too. Try just not showing up and say you want to cancel and see how nice they are about it.
    Your point? People should know what they are getting into before they sign? Yes, I agree, that was the point I was trying to make, along with the fact that in such a circumstance, there is no accountability on behalf of the school. So parents should observe classes and talk to current and previous attendees before they commit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Migukclaus View Post
    If the instructor is not providing quality instruction you can report him to the BBB. However, the proof will be on your end to prove that he/she is not providing quality instruction. Now if he/she is not even present on the floor and allowing some kid to teach then you can easily make a case. Bottom line is you read the contract and you know the prices and apparently you are willing to pay those prices so you can't really be pissed a the ATA for what they are charging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Migukclaus View Post
    While it is good business to disclose this information, they do not have to. If your contract did not stipulate you needed to purchase an annual membership, then you do not have to. Same with the belt testing, if you do not want to pay for it then don't. However, if membership is required for Lil' Johnny to promote well then it is your call. Your contract is for instruction in martial arts and you are paying for just that. Nothing more...nothing less. All other activity payments such as testing, tournaments, organizational fees, etc. are seperate and do not have to be disclosed. Unethical...no. Bad business on their part? Yes.
    Have you heard the news about the BBB? Pay the money, you get an A. Don't pay, you get a bad grade. Don't hang your hat on the BBB!

    I know they don't have to, but IMO it is unethical; in yours, it is not. As a licensed, financial practitioner, I would lose my license if I ever tried to pull something like this. With many ethics exams and years of financial and business experience under my belt, I think I am a good judge of what is ethical in business. But when you come down to individuals and businesses that aren't held to a standard of ethics, what is ethical becomes no more than a matter of opinion.

    The stated purpose of the contract was for the achievement of black belt. (Boy, I'm going to get some nasty comments about that!) Any reasonable person would not expect additional charges (membership and testing fees) outside of the contract required to achieve black belt, other than for equipment. You interpreted "take exception with" as my being PO'd? Interesting jump. What I was trying to say was that I said I didn't appreciate ATA's methodolgy of requiring payments above and beyond the contract in order to achieve the goal stated in the contract.

    Overall, my experience with ATA was very positive and it was a good experience for my kids. The end!
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 6:29pm

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    Your repeated posts and the appeal to authority in the last post makes your username ironic.

    Quote Originally Posted by seekchat View Post
    Yeah, the park district sports programs...not so impressive. The students/young-adults teaching there don't know the first thing about commitment or respect, much less character-building. I personally found the ATA cost worthwhile, although I did not appreciate the undisclosed costs. My kids learned basic tae kwon do, sans the sweeps and ground fighting. And we are not actually planning on going to another martial arts school. So...?



    Your point? People should know what they are getting into before they sign? Yes, I agree, that was the point I was trying to make, along with the fact that in such a circumstance, there is no accountability on behalf of the school. So parents should observe classes and talk to current and previous attendees before they commit.






    Have you heard the news about the BBB? Pay the money, you get an A. Don't pay, you get a bad grade. Don't hang your hat on the BBB!

    I know they don't have to, but IMO it is unethical; in yours, it is not. As a licensed, financial practitioner, I would lose my license if I ever tried to pull something like this. With many ethics exams and years of financial and business experience under my belt, I think I am a good judge of what is ethical in business. But when you come down to individuals and businesses that aren't held to a standard of ethics, what is ethical becomes no more than a matter of opinion.

    The stated purpose of the contract was for the achievement of black belt. (Boy, I'm going to get some nasty comments about that!) Any reasonable person would not expect additional charges (membership and testing fees) outside of the contract required to achieve black belt, other than for equipment. You interpreted "take exception with" as my being PO'd? Interesting jump. What I was trying to say was that I said I didn't appreciate ATA's methodolgy of requiring payments above and beyond the contract in order to achieve the goal stated in the contract.

    Overall, my experience with ATA was very positive and it was a good experience for my kids. The end!
  8. seekchat is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 6:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    No, I interpreted it as someone who has only experienced one martial art and has a ton of bias.

    So, you repeat what you typed while denying it is for justification? Wow. Like I said you have a ton to learn about Martial arts.

    One of the top respected martial arts, Judo, teaches everything you just type and competes in the similar venues as TKD.

    Hardcore is a starwman used by people that do not understand Martial Arts.




    Your comments were taken at face value. You don't know what you are talking about when it comes to martial arts. .
    What bias? Stating my experiences about ATA are a bias? And you have none? You have a huge chip on your shoulder!

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    I said nothing about justification of why you did what you did. You are trying to justify your lack of Martial Understanding.
    Oh, I guess I must have misread your previous post:

    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    You have a ton to learn about martial arts in general if you really believe this justification of "adult" vs. "child" activities.
    I've posted my experience for individuals who may be researching ATA as an option for their children. I could have benefitted from the information before I signed onto ATA. Overall, I am satisfied with my ATA experience, but there were surprises. I'm not interested in verbal (or physical, lol) sparring with you or anyone else. I didn't post this (my original post) for you or people who want to attack me or ATA. It's for people who want to know more about ATA.
  9. seekchat is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 7:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by tkd panda View Post
    Sorry if Im misunderstanding but what Im getting from your post is that you're not putting your kids through the ATA's system to learn self defence but to give them an activity with goals that can be accomplished.


    Also you dont like the fee's system I cant help but think you could have found another activity that meets with what you want your kids to get out of it without the unethical and unaccountable fee's experianced in the ATA.
    Wow, I really appreciate your even-keeled response. Yes, that was part of it, in addition to reinforcing life skills such as respect, perseverance, self-confidence, etc. I did also expect a level of martial arts and self-defense skills, but I did not have the naive impression that an ATA black belt was on par with a black belt achieved in non-ATA schools. I was aware that ATA would not teach all aspects of TKD like sweeps, take-downs, etc.

    I didn't know about the additional fees until I was stuck in the contract. In the end, I left satisfied even with the additional fees. My kids went for 5 & 6 years respectively under a 3-year contract; even when we were no longer required to pay, they continued to attend for free until they earned their black belts. I believe we had one of the very good ATA schools and instructors.

    As for other activities that would have achieved similar goals, there were no other good activites that start at 3 years of age! And my younger child was tired of sitting on the sidelines. When my kids were old enough to meet the age requirements of the other activities, I found two extremes the majority of the time: win at all cost (yelling, deriding, disrespectful) or lackadaisical. Even as my kids continued to play sports in conjunction with ATA, I have not experienced any activity that gave them such a well-rounded set of personal life skills.

    I hope that my post about ATA will provide useful information to other parents interested in ATA, including what to expect and what to be wary of.
    Last edited by seekchat; 12/14/2010 8:14pm at .
  10. tkd panda is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2010 9:33pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by seekchat View Post
    Wow, I really appreciate your even-keeled response. Yes, that was part of it, in addition to reinforcing life skills such as respect, perseverance, self-confidence, etc. I did also expect a level of martial arts and self-defense skills, but I did not have the naive impression that an ATA black belt was on par with a black belt achieved in non-ATA schools. I was aware that ATA would not teach all aspects of TKD like sweeps, take-downs, etc.

    I didn't know about the additional fees until I was stuck in the contract. In the end, I left satisfied even with the additional fees. My kids went for 5 & 6 years respectively under a 3-year contract; even when we were no longer required to pay, they continued to attend for free until they earned their black belts. I believe we had one of the very good ATA schools and instructors.

    As for other activities that would have achieved similar goals, there were no other good activites that start at 3 years of age! And my younger child was tired of sitting on the sidelines. When my kids were old enough to meet the age requirements of the other activities, I found two extremes the majority of the time: win at all cost (yelling, deriding, disrespectful) or lackadaisical. Even as my kids continued to play sports in conjunction with ATA, I have not experienced any activity that gave them such a well-rounded set of personal life skills.
    To be quite honest I dont think you understand martial arts unless you keep your children attending well into thier teens they wont retain any of the skills they might have learned.

    As for them achieving blackbelt at such a young age if they have that means nothing in terms of thier ability to defend themselves in the future and the fact they have been granted a blackbelt at such a young age indicates that the school is just another ATA McDojo in a long line of ATA McDojo's.

    Also you have no stated experiance in the martial arts yet consider yourself qualified to know whether or not your children are attending a good school.
    What have you done to come to this conclusion?

    Did you look around at other martial arts schools in your area and compare the students abilities and progress to that of your kids?

    Or is it that you're more happy for your kids to have a sense of accomplishment and some lifeskills that can also be gained through any activity that requires commitment and perseverance?
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