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  1. MBuzzy is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2008 12:55am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Interpretation of Basics

    I just got back from an incredible seminar. One of the main points that we covered was "decoding" our traditional techniques.

    For example, most traditional arts are used to cross blocking hand over body, throw block, pull other hand back rotating the hand, etc. But very few of us look at that as anything more than just a block. We talked about the block not actually being the block, but the strike...and the transitional movement is the actual block.

    I'm curious how many people look at their basics or forms more deeply than the surface application?
  2. kanegs is online now

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2008 10:05am

    supporting member
     Style: Se-Jong TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MBuzzy
    I'm curious how many people look at their basics or forms more deeply than the surface application?
    My very first class the first move taught was a low block. It was then explained to me to never use it in a fight (or sparring) as it left my head exposed to attack. We learn it in order to learn to generate power with the hips, keep our balance, etc.

    In fighting stance we keep our hands up to guard our head, use our elbows to protect the body and use our legs to protect us from low kicks.
  3. MBuzzy is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2008 10:18am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This was kind of the point of the seminar and I've wondered this a thousand times. Why are we teaching all of these basics that are not effective in a fight? Why does our sparring look NOTHING like your hyung or basics? Shouldn't this stuff all be related? Yes - basics are a great way to teach Huri and power generation, they're a great way to teach basic coordination and to get the movements down, but as we teach them....they're not effective.

    I can honestly tell you, the **** that these guys are teaching works. Low block IS combat effective, I plan to use this stuff in my sparring when I get back, but it requires a COMPLETELY different perspective. when you cros your arms and twist your hips BEFORE the actual block....THAT'S the block. the hand on top is performing basically a Pok sau and guiding the opponent's hand away, the other hand then grabs, pulls the opponent in and the low block is the STRIKE to the knee. And that's only one way to interpret. Like I said, it requires a lot of playing around, thinking outside the box and vision (I'm not trying to sound like a psycho here, it works....well, it works as much as traditional MAs can). Honestly, it just helps to see it.

    If this **** was a cult, I'd drink the kool aid.
  4. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2008 1:42pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's not Koolaid.

    It's Yogurt Soju.
  5. kanegs is online now

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2008 2:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: Se-Jong TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First I just want to make clear that I'm a beginner and not to take too much stock in what I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by MBuzzy
    I can honestly tell you, the **** that these guys are teaching works. Low block IS combat effective, I plan to use this stuff in my sparring when I get back, but it requires a COMPLETELY different perspective....
    Was this demonstrated against a resisting opponent?

    Quote Originally Posted by MBuzzy
    ...when you cros your arms and twist your hips BEFORE the actual block....THAT'S the block.
    In my school, instead of a basic x-block in front of the body, we chamber the block by the ear on the opposite side and our hands are in fists. So there really is no way to apply that example to the way were are being taught.

    Quote Originally Posted by MBuzzy
    ...the hand on top is performing basically a Pok sau and guiding the opponent's hand away, the other hand then grabs, pulls the opponent in and the low block is the STRIKE to the knee. And that's only one way to interpret. Like I said, it requires a lot of playing around, thinking outside the box and vision (I'm not trying to sound like a psycho here, it works....well, it works as much as traditional MAs can). Honestly, it just helps to see it.
    So if I'm reading this right instead of blocking a kick to the groin you're blocking a punch and then pulling them in with the arm that throwing the elbow to the rear, and the hand which I thought was blocking is actually counter-striking my opponent.

    So, who did the seminar? Do they have a website? Is there any video?
  6. dull_edge is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2008 3:20pm


     Style: Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the main point is looking deeper into your basics, he just just useing the low block as an example.
  7. MBuzzy is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2008 4:05pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dull_edge
    I think the main point is looking deeper into your basics, he just just useing the low block as an example.
    Exactly right.

    Quote Originally Posted by kanegs
    First I just want to make clear that I'm a beginner and not to take too much stock in what I think.


    Was this demonstrated against a resisting opponent?


    In my school, instead of a basic x-block in front of the body, we chamber the block by the ear on the opposite side and our hands are in fists. So there really is no way to apply that example to the way were are being taught.

    So if I'm reading this right instead of blocking a kick to the groin you're blocking a punch and then pulling them in with the arm that throwing the elbow to the rear, and the hand which I thought was blocking is actually counter-striking my opponent.

    So, who did the seminar? Do they have a website? Is there any video?
    I see that question thrown around here alot - is this demonstrated against a resisting opponent? In this case, its just a block/strike counter, so I'm not sure where the resistance would come. And yes, this was demonstrated against a number of different types of punches. Obviously, different blocks and strikes are called for, but it is all based on the concept of controlling the center. There is only an inch between hit and not hit.

    But I believe that the non-resistance training is for learning the basics only. It is necessary to do some things with no resistance just to learn the movement, but once you get most of it right, it is designed to counter resistance.

    The point of the entire seminar is not that every basic is different, it was that there is more there. The chamber for that x block may not just be a chamber, could be a block, grab, throw....who knows and it depends how you do it. It just takes the insight to SEE what else might be there. I'm still no good at it, but there can be a lot of applications for simple moves. These arts are based on economy of motion, but there is so much waste. The point is that it might not all be waste, what if it is all USED motion and we find the intended applications for those chambers and prep movements.

    What you stated about the purpose is pretty close to how we learned to look at things. There are many ways to look at it, but that's the idea.

    The seminar was given by Master Jay S. Penfil, as far as I know, his school doesn't have a site and I don't have the videos YET. If you're interested in more stuff like this, take a look at Iain Abernathy, he gets really deep into bunkai and the like.
  8. G-Off is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/21/2008 4:23pm


     Style: Ronin wannabe

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually the low block is one of the few I find useful, provided you do it in a fighting stance and continue the circle arm motion past the bottom. It's actually how San Shou and Thai fighters catch front kicks. Jerome LeBanner shall demonstrate.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfrkFCPLLmc

    If you continue that motion up, you can get your hand behind the heel and catch their leg, so the low block is actually somewhat useful. Of course, this is an appilcation you will have to find for yourself, as no teacher I've found will tell you about it 9_9

    The high block, on the other hand... :bssign:
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2008 4:43pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's no such thing as a block.

    You were taught wrong.
  10. Art is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2008 8:21pm


     Style: TKD, wrestling, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know, trying to say a basic technique is a,b,c,d . . . z and trying to justify the use . . . doesn't that defeat the purpose of being . . . basic.

    One thing that bothers me is that most places I have been too fail to teach the most basic thing first . . . stance. They may show it to you but showing and teaching and drilling are on completely different levels.
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