4/18/2009 10:46pm, #1751
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- Jun 2005
- East Bay, CA
4/19/2009 6:57am, #1752
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
For you creedenI never cared much about the rank anyhow
that was quite compelling
You do not speak for me. I am my own man. I don't speak for Floyd, Chicago or Fall River either. I'm not hard to find, want my phone number, just ask.
Given that, we didn't start out wanting to like each other. It only took about 10 minutes for us to figure out we were telling the same stories. My instructor knew all those guys i.e. John's father.
then pain in the butt John calls me. However he can tell my deeply personal story too. He also lacks the class to leave out details I would omit. Nobody could know that stuff .. NOBODY.
To John Patricio
why not post the paperwork?
You still think Aguiar kicked ass in court
Its called busting someone out. Costing them money one way or another.
You also lie constantly and make **** up
[quote][Can you shed some light on the Billy John Patricio situation/QUOTE]
I meant that, he Ken could help people understand. The so called lose of friendship, your so bitter like you and him were lovers or something.
Why would my brother need to talk about me on the Internet to a stranger.
the wonders of parody.
Nothing hurts except your pride.
I'm NOT LOCKED UP AND HAVE NOT BEEN
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I think this video clears up the 10th dan thing. I just wonder what else have the shot. Are they shooting the real BDFS to go against Floyd Webbs movie?
4/19/2009 7:47am, #1753
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- Sep 2008
WHAT IS A DOCUMENTARY
This is a great source of humor for me as I am continually questioning the meaning of this film
The problem I face is that so much of the fantasy and delusion regarding his life remains intact. My task is to get to the story of the real man and examine the impact of that man, his life through other who knew and were influenced and effected by his existance.
Then I remind myself, every documentary is a journey of discovery.
All i can do is present my observations
the occasional veiled threat
invitation to Federal Court
alllegedly mastermind the 1974 Purolator Vault Robbery.
It is about the thing I lecture my 18 year old about and even myself. taking the time to stop and think, to not panic. Bad judgement and panic can get people killed
Then I get another email warning and questions about "my sources," accusations against sources and suggestions that I "find another project."
Kinds like threatening someones 81 years old mother with out proof of those accusations. just because you type it doesnt make it true. I think you staement will be used against you in court.
Oh yeah, the book
4/22/2009 11:37am, #1754
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- Sep 2008
Proof that floyd webbs movie is not the truth
From Dante's Inferno
An Interview from William V Aguiar Jr's school.
The meeting had been arranged through Bill Aguiars latters dojo in Fall River Massachusetts. Aguiar was perhaps the most dedicated and enduring of all of dantes students. To him had fallen the mantle of president of the World Karate Federation and Chairmanship of the Black Dragon Fighting Society.
Aguair and Creeden father never turned their back on Keehan. They knew him for years before the dojo war. They were at least loyal to their Master.
Black belt magazine March 1976
Dantes hand picked successor he told us flatly on several occassions, was William Aguiar on sveral occassions, was William v Aguiar of Fall River Massachusetts. At the time of the interview Dante told BLACK BELT he bequeathed his Black Dragon Fighting Society, his World Karate Federation, and his Dante system to Aguiar.
Something from your blog.
'You see,' Crista interrupted, 'the reason he did that was because he wanted to make sure that if anything happened to him, everything would be turned over to me. As a matter of fact, his will, I think , was made out two months before (his death). The only will. Everything now is in my name. We changed the whole corporate structure. He was the president, I was the vice president, but he owned all the corporate stock. About two months before his death, we changed all the papers; I was the president and he changed all the stock to my name
On the other hand, Mr. Aguiar is neither related nor heir of John Keehan also known as “Count Dante.” Nor have I seen evidence of any legal rights to his estate or image granted in order to copyright and trademark the Dante Style,
From the interview of Bob Cooley, cop, rat, lawyer
He was the first person Crista Dante called when the Count died. Cooley says he saw some money at Dante's house earlier. It was coincendental that there had been a armored car vault robbery and Dante was called to the Grand jury , took a lie detector test and passed, so I hear.
After the blackballing of Dante in Chicago, primarily because the death of Jim Konsevic in the 1970 Dojo/Dragon War, he was befriended by Bill Aguiar, a karate instructor from Fall River, MA. They became very close, with Dante going to Fall River to help Aguiar open another school to teach the Black Dragon concepts. In several articles in Black Belt Magazine it was reported that the leadership of the Black Dragon Fighting Society was passed on to Aguiar as well as development of it's concepts. Aguiar claims not only leadership of the school but ownership of all intellectual property and copyrights as well. Yet I have an interview with Crista Dante that was emailed to me in which she states all business interest were signed over to her. She is nowhere to be found presently but I have a feeling she is going to turn up at some point. Then the truth with come out.
It seems to me more and more that your a thief. And your being supported by Ashida Kim who you needed two signed books from Kim for your fundraiser to happen. HOW CAN YOU SLEEP WITH YOUR SELF. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED.:sign18:
4/22/2009 1:14pm, #1755
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- Jun 2005
- East Bay, CA
Creeden, you just don't get it do you? It doesn't matter who owns the BDFS. Legally Floyd can make a documentary, period. What does making a documentary have to do with who owns what? Anybody can make a documentary about anybody, period. Besides, this isn't a documentary about the BDFS, it's about Count Dante.
4/22/2009 2:02pm, #1756
you just don't get it do you
- Join Date
- Sep 2008
It doesn't matter who owns the BDFS
You talked to Floyd Webb and then denied it to Aguiar. Face it Judas. Be a man. It seems to me that you were paid $7500 for a box of Aguiars stuff that he gave you. And then you denied it to him over and over.
Pieschala is right you cant sit at the table.
Legally Floyd can make a documentary
And also ruin his credibility as a film maker, by debunking his movie as an UN truth. And also being backed by frauds that Bullshido has exposed. And thats Creeden has been exposing on his blog http://john-keehan.blogspot.com/.
What does making a documentary have to do with who owns what
You harassed these guys for a long time. Ashida Kim and Stoffel Van Vureen.
Now what are you guy gonna do if the Judge says Billy owns it. Your probably gonna cry. Ashida will probably kill himself.
this isn't a documentary about the BDFS, it's about Count Dante
And what about the John Cole video, that shut everyone up. It seems Creeden is gearing up to dis credit Floyds Webbs movie with the real guys.
William V Aguiar III he is the Supreme Grand Master Of the BDFS.
And he the trademark owner of the Black Dragon fighting Society. So Floyd will have to go back to court again.
And what about Creeden secretly helping Floyd Webb threw Chris Pieschala
Here's your 1967 flyer, see the number of people who are not talking to Floyd Webb because its bullshit. So I'm directing this at Floyd, I have helped you I gave you the name of the wrestler, His name everybody is Horst Rheinhart, but that not his real name. SSSShhhh Fall River secret. Lets just say that he was very close to Bill Jr and My father. I'll give you a little story of Tea San Tanaka the wrestler drinking beer on Horseneck beach in Westport Mass with John Keehan, my father and William III and this wrestler. At a place called Shandy's it was at the mouth of Gooseberry Island. And thats how the wrestler met John Keehan.
I have the e-mail directly from Floyd Webb from Piescahala giving me David Klufts number
Last edited by Lob Sing; 4/22/2009 2:08pm at .
4/22/2009 3:40pm, #1757
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- Jun 2005
- East Bay, CA
As far as marketing, yes I know how much money is in it. That's why I told Bill long ago to stop asking Floyd for money up front and just make money off the marketing, but he didn't listen. It's good that at least you have seen what a mistake that was.
As far as high school goes... I am much much smarter than you. I told you a dozen times it was 3 years and you still keep saying 5. How smart does that make you look when you can't get a number right?
4/22/2009 4:22pm, #1758
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Ji Do Kwan
So here I am AGAIN because of the bickering.
I hope Floyd reads this he could get good leads for interviews from these folks all Trias guys. He might even be able to use them too; assuming people would shut up about the law suit. I've been saving this one, for the time when there are "better moods".
So I am checking MY archives for names.
Note the EAST COAST LINKS!
Interview - "September 2008"
Grand Master Master Phil Koeppel
"Q18. - John Keehan the famous ìCount Danteî was an early member of the USKA, who trained him and what caused him to split from the USKA and form the ìBlack Dragon Fighting Societyî? Did you know him personally?
A18. - "Let me answer the last question first. I want to also let you know that I will be brief as possible with these answers because John is now dead and cannot dispute or defend himself. That said, yes I knew John quite well. Son of a Chicago Doctor, lived in the Beverly Hills section of Chicago in the 40ís, 50ís & part of the 60ís. I stayed at his fathers home when I was in Chicago several times. I met John in the very early 1960ís.
The 1st time being when he and Doug Dwyer were on there way back to Chicago from Phoenix, AZ they were out there training in Mr. Triasís dojo. I remember it was in the summer and they were at my Main St. dojo. I believe John was a green or purple belt at the time and Dwyer was a yellow belt. This was one or two years before John hosted the USKA World Championships 1963 in Chicago. Who trained him ? All his kata and waza were from Robert A. Trias. This constituted all of Johnís formal training. (No matter what anyone claims).
Personal differences between R. A. Trias & John Keehan caused the split, along with the fact that Keehan did not want to take directions from anyone.
His Black Dragon Fighting Society? I have no idea where that came from."
Q19. - What was your recollection of the incident involving the murder of Sensei Jim Koncevic and the events leading up to it (dojo wars)?
A19. - "I knew Jim Koncevic well. He was a very good judoka along with being a competitive
Karateka. What happened to him was a shame. Keehan started the fight and Jim tried to finish it. He ended up dieing over it. It was a waste of a good person who was loyal to his teacher. John Keehan should have went to jail for that affair.
Dojo Wars? That makes good copy.
I went up to Chicago to teach at the Judo & Karate Center at 99th & Western in 1964/19650. Charlie Brown owned and operated the dojo. I went to work for him. Someone had put blasting caps on his plate glass windows a month or so before I started teaching in this location. I taught the karate and Tony Zvirblis was the judo instructor. He became my Judo Sensei and has remained a close friend to this day. Some of the other dojoís had their window broke out with bricks. Like I said, ìDojo Wars made good copy.
Except for the one stupid incident involving Jim Koncevic there was nothing but some broken glass and words being thrown back and forth. End of Chapter, Verse. Period."
This is good, John Creeden Jr. is the only guy I know who can talk in detail on Adriano Emperado. He knew all these guys just like my instructor did .. i.e. Hee Il Cho the son of Henry S. Cho all those guys. Told you we all know each other somehow. Henry S Cho had tournaments in NJ this is an important later. But many were here in Illinois Rockford to be specific.
So I challenged John the third on your Dad's trophies .. where were they from. Him, "Rockford IL?"
John Jr. is Chung Do Kwan and I'm Ji Do Kwan this is befor Tae Kwon Do was a formed. I checked with the Kuk Ki Won. He is real.
HOW? Because I have a school seal from there hand carved by the same guy who did the one for the WTF. If you were my student it would be on your certificate.
Q7. - Tell us about your training in Kajukenbo, your teacher the famous Adriano Emporado, and also about the Niko Budo forms that you developed and still practice.
A7. - "In 1958 when I reported to US Navy #85, NAVCOMSTA ñ Wahiawa, I had no idea what was available as far as continuing my karate training. Two other sailors, James Toone and George Whitley who were stationed at Navy 85 had been taking karate at Emperadoís club in Wahiawa. They cornered me after I was on base for about a week and took me to the washroom. Both of them stood there and wanted to know what I knew. They had heard I had studied karate in Japan. I did a few things and the following week Jim Toone took me to the workout at the Wahiawa YMCA. This is where the ìChiefî had his club. I was accepted as a member and yes, this is what Sensei Emperado was called, Chief!
The workouts were brutal. Not much kata. A form that resembled Nihanshi, and parts of Bassai. Most of the workouts were blocks, punches and kicks and what the Chief referred to as ìtricksî, what we would call waza.
One on one off the line. Not to much control at all to the body. Once in awhile you would catch one in the head but mostly body shots, take downs, fighting out of a push from behind come out of a roll and work tricks and combinations. I enjoyed working out in Hawaii with the Chief. He was only there 3 or 4 times a month. He had other clubs on the island. The people who did most of the teaching were, Tony Ramos, Vern Tokomoto and Jerry Martin, all local boys. When you joined the dojo, you purchased a white judo gi. You then went to the local cleaners and got it dyed black. I still have my gi top and patches from 1958 that I received when I started in his dojo. "
And since we are talking frauds, let's talk about Rod Sachornoski Juko-Ryu
Here's the Hammond Indiana link with him, Indiana is my home stat too.
Q14. - Being that you were the first karate dojo in Illinois, how did you attract students to this virtually unknown style of combat, and how were you received by the Judo community?
A14. - "When I started teaching in Peoria in 1960, the population was about 100,000 people. There werenít more than 20 people at that time, who had ever heard the word ìKarateî. I had made contact with Jim Mackey who I worked out with in Japan. He was at this time, a artist with the Chicago Tribune. Jim Mackey no longer worked out in Karate. Jim connected me with Rich De Merse and Jerry Fastbender who had both trained in Japan in the late 50ís. DeMerse was in the Army and Fastbender was in the Air Force. (Jerry Fastbender won the Kata Grand Championship in the 1st World Championships in Chicago in 1963). They both were working out at Bill Turners Judo Club in Gary, Indiana. . Around this time I also met Chuck Gruzanski who was a self-defense instructor with the Chicago Police Department. Chuck was a student of Kyokushinkai and was also adept as a knife thrower. He and Harry McAvoy authored a book on Knife and Axe throwing, and they also co-founded the ìTru Flight Knife Throwers Assnî. Chuck Gruzanski died in his 40ís with cancer. He was part of the 1st Chicago Karate Yudanshakai along with myself and a few of the others from the Chicago land area. By in large most of the Judo clubs and Judoka tolerated us, because at the time we were really in the minority. After all, Judo was established before WWII throughout the major cities in the U.S.
If it were not for our good friends in Judo, we would not have had the early growth that we experienced during the early 1960ís. When we promoted the 1st World Championships in 1963, I had my own Karate dojo in Peoria. In Chicago, Keehan was working out of Gene Wykaís Judo dojo, and DeMerse and Fastbender were training and teaching out of Turners Judo dojo in Gary. The 1st karate tournament we held in Illinois was a club affair held at Chicago Judo and Karate at 99th & Western in Chicago in 1962, three dojoís participated, Chicago, Gary and Peoria.
The Judo community treated us well at the time. Most of us started training in Judo and continued doing so for the next few years. If it were not for the Judo community opening up its arms to us in the early 60ís it would have taken us a lot longer to make the progress we did over the next five years.
Q41. - Who were some of the people that you came up the ranks with?
A41. - "I recently ran across a USKA Constitution. It does not have a print date. I believe it came out in 1965/66. It gives the structure of the USKA at that time , with it members with their positions and ranks. Draw your own conclusions.
Director ñ R. A. Trias ñ Phoenix AZ
State Rep - Richard DeMerse 4th dan Hammond, IN
How does that link?????????
R. ROD SACHARNOSKI
JUKO KAI INTERNATIONAL - ALL OKINAWAN MARTIAL ARTS
Dr. Rod Sacharnoski was born in New Jersey in 1939. He began studying the martial arts in 1950 in Seabrook, N.J. He received his instruction in the local Japanese community. In 1954 he began training in Dai Yoshin Ryu Bujutsu under A.C. Church in Hammond, IN. "
Of course they would have bumped into each other and John et al.
Think about it!
" In 1961, his tour of duty completed, he returned to the U.S., having earned a 3rd degree black belt in Okinawan Jiu Jitsu, a 1st degree black belt in Okinawan Judo, and a 3rd degree in Okinawan Kenpo. During that time, he realized the importance of Ki and the arts and founded the world's only art of Combat Ki.
After his return to the States, The New Jersey Jiu Jitsu Yudanshakai was founded in 1962. He was able to unify numerous American Sensei into a parent (umbrella) organization and certify them. Dr. Sacharnoski also served in the following capacities:
Deputy U.S. Marshal
Chief of Police
Director of Public Safety
Sheriff's Police Training Commisioner
County Criminal Detective
Sounds like a mix of Keehans story and the "Hammond USKA" but don't just take my word for it. I know this man he's posted on BS-Do before.
"Robert Mark Kamen"
An Interview with Robert Mark Kamen
I first heard of Mr. Robert Mark Kamen like most of the Martial Arts world and that is through the release of the highly successful movie "The Karate Kid" in which he wrote the screenplay for. Mr. Kamen as you may or may not know is an accomplished martial artist with over 40 years experience. His roots trace back to the Karate styles of Shotokan, Isshinryu, and Okinawan Goju, and he now trains in Tai Chi and Ba Qua. I found him to be quite charismatic, cordial, and willing to share his considerable knowledge. I have, since the completion of the interview, began corresponding with him on a plethora of subjects from winemaking to internal martial arts to whatever popped into my head, and he has been no less than gracious with his time. In a world full of self appointed and self promoted "experts" it's refreshing to have met someone who not only understands the true martial arts, but lives it and life to its fullest. As always I hope you enjoy the interview.
Until next time,
Q4. What were the early days of martial arts on the East Coast like, especially in N. Y. ?
A4."In a word, rough. In two words, very rough. Lots of broken bones, a fair amount of blood. But also very passionate, and pure. The men teaching were usually ex marines who had picked up enough of the art while stationed in Okinawa or Japan to teach. There was not a lot of advanced technique, but what was taught was battle tested and true. One of the true geniuses of his art was Don Nagle, Ed McGrath's teacher. Sensei Nagle was one of those rare individuals who found his inner master within a very short time of formal training. He just KNEW. Dennis Bootle and I used to drive over to his dojo in Jersey just to listen to the man teach. His knowledge and breath of technique was very advanced back then. And he was the most amazing fighter I have ever seen to this day. He was so fast you were beaten before you moved."
Q9. Who were your inspirations for the main characters in the first Karate Kid movie, Miyagi, Daniel, John Kreese, and the Cobra Kai?
A9."Kreese and the Cobra Kai were the cartoon version of a man and his dojo that will remain unmentioned. The other characters I just made up from bits and pieces of my imagination."
That's public info in their words. I just know the names and links.
I merely point this out to illustrate my points. Previously stated.
1. Lots of fakes & loud mouths want to sit at the adult table. And there aren't any seats.
2. If you'd shut up, and let the case go through who knows what you might learn.
Master C. C. Pieschala
4/22/2009 11:32pm, #1759
Chris please don't take this the wrong way... I am not trying to be a wiseass and the information posted is interesting... in a stream of consciousness sort of blogg sort of way... but what is the point of this info to John Patricio? To any recondite knowledge (or popular knowledge) that people may have regarding the film? " " regarding Dante? I know Creedon does the same thing... and I took a few shots to the head in my day as well so maybe I do also? But what I see is a lot of interesting tidbits with some innuendo that are pretty much common knowledge to those of us around a few years... And like this is supposed to somehow demonstrate that Patricio should be having franks and beans while others have lobsters? Maybe I am missin somethin?
I am going to tell you something that I told Creedon Chris ok? I mentioned my teacher... Riley Hawkins... and by jove if people fought for real they know about my teacher... and Creedon never really got back to me on that. That tells me a lot Chris... a lot. No disprespect to Jawney but that tells me a lot my friend. Why do I mention this? well if you guys are the security for the proverbial "adult table" and you don't know about Riley Hawkins... well John Cole probably knows about Riley ask him at your lesure... I am quite sure Creedon senior does and that Timothy K did as well. See in some ways... just a few... I am like you guys. Namely I am quite capable at playing the name game and can tell from the name game how much someone really was around the inner circles of fighting clubs in the day. How to say this gently... I have my doubts about Falls River from how the game has been played out.
Its not only about my teacher and Floyd knows about this as I have spoken to him of it... It being the role of Danteism and the movement of martial arts in the inner cities... the guys coming back from Asia and teaching... some of them (Riley) going back To ASia as an innovator for developing fighting efficacy in the arts... But here is the thing: Knowing that Riley's **** was brought back to Asia (including by Korean special forces), and taught by asians here via asia via from Riley here originally, and knowing the people that were involved by association... I can pretty much get a gander of how much people know whats up. like yourself I can open doors, hell I have opened doors for people here with information and could with my dialing finger open quite a few. So it strikes me as strange to say the least that Creedon is mum when I mention this info. Like I said it tells me a lot. At this point in all seriouisness I don't know what table anyone is sitting at!
4/23/2009 1:00am, #1760
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Ji Do Kwan
I wanted to point out John was just a guy people treat like a "Comic Book".
No real mystery to him himself; but the "social milieu" as one I know put it grew forum that group it taking center stage in this forum. Ashida Kim is irrelevant in terms over all as the afore mentioned person. Yet they all claim to secretly connected.
It is most like Creeden himself that noted "a documentary on John Timothy Keehan: Not all the other that are trying to cash in because they happen to be round. Lots of people were are around John.
So if that is the context, is it now wonder that some may take offense to the comments that casually get flung about? If that is not the context I for one was misled & would walked away .. no, never gotten involved in the first place.
It was a small group that all knew each other. So it needs to be treated with respect to a dead human being not a point of debate.
It was aimed at the lack of respect & ignorance of the topic at hand that prevents the major players from talking.
I wasn't aimed at anybody just to set the tone a bit.
I see all the static as people including the waters & giving me headaches. This subject could be quite large and scope creep tends to set in; I see it a s a disservice who want actual provable factual information. So I looked up a couple names and posted what they had to say.
You should contact me via phone, some of the points you mention I can provide you plenty more back ground on. For instance you mention Korea; I am Ji Do Kwan there was no such thing as Tae Kwon Do when I started .. So it is important to know who the actual players were John Keehan was one.
So if it is the definition of the truth this stuff is relevant.
Like i said just call me I'll tlk no cloak and dagger. But there is plenty of it..
Here's on since you mention the Koreans. FYI - Chung Do Kwan is the kwan taught to us troops special operators in Vietnam but I am sure you knew that so here is a bit more.
"HISTORY OF JIDOKWAN
While in Korea last July (1998), I was looking through some old issue of Taekwondo magazines at the Sang Moo Sa store on Kukkiwon-Gil (Kukkiwon Street), just down the hill, past the main gate from Kukkiwon. In the Korean language magazine "World Taekwondo", August 1997 edition, I found this interview with my Great-Grandmaster Lee, Chong Woo of the Jidokwan. Here is a rough translation of the article for those interested. Jidokwan was one of the five original Kwans and "Root to the birth of modern Taekwondo ." Al Cole
Roots to the birth of modern Taekwondo - is Jidokwan
By Chong Woo Lee"