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  1. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2008 9:30pm

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Statement from American Top Team and Ricardo Liborio

    I got some time to sit with Liborio before he taught the No Gi class tonight, even passed up on some trainig myself with Shark so that we can get clarification on what now seems to be a thread started on erroneous hearsay. With that the case, Liborio wanted to thank Bullshido for their constructive criticism, as he wants the best possible programs for American Top Team.

    I will go over the points that have been brought up and what actions and answers Liborio have to them.

    1. Oldman's phone call to Century, and the hard sell that he received.
    - Mestre Liborio stated that will never happen again. Those students who come for Level 1 Certification are there to sweat and learn. It is a different case if the school owner is there to watch, and one of the instructors who will be teaching from their school. The only person certified to teach ATT Level 1 MMA would be the instructor training and learning. "Someone who cannot pass the course, in a wheelchair, whatever, will not pass this course". Liborio went on to say, "If they can't pass the course midway, have an issue which they cannot continue, I'd rather refund the remainder of their money". These students must pass.

    With that said... Oldman, you are cordially invited by ATT's Mestre, Ricardo Liborio to fly in for the next class, generally closed to the public, to observe, and report back to Bullshido. You will see for yourself the curriculum, the manner of training, and the subsequent sparring, albeit controlled.

    ***As a note, I said earlier that I though there was no sparring, I was wrong, and that there is but is controlled using the techniques they have learned. *****


    2. The 3 day course study.
    - Mestre Liborio confided to me that he spent considerable time working on this program before making an offer to the public. Is this the same as what ATT's Profiessional Fighters? No it's not. Is this the same lessons taught to ATT's beginner MMA students. Yes. Liborio wants eveyone to get this straight, he is not teaching these Martial Arts Instructors how to be MMA fighters, MMA coches, or MMA Instructors. This course is to give the basic knowledge with a 3 day seminar, followed up with DVD instruction from ATT on what they learned during the 3 day Seminar. This is not for a Dojang to go out and train their students five nights a week on how to be a MMA fighter, rather, it's designed for an hour at most a week to go over the basics of mounted position, guard, basic jab, cross, takedown, etc. Anyone who says different does not have the correct information. These school owners are under contract as well not to represent themselves as anything more than a Level 1 school. No exceptions, if false representation is found, they lose their certification. Liborio is very protective of the hard work he has put in, every fighter at ATT, future fighter, and every student have in American Top team.

    *** On a personal note, I mentioned before this is no different from me taking a private from Shark or Danillo, and videotaping it as it happens. I use that video for future reference, as the instruction at ATT is very detailed, and exact. ***

    3. Quality Control of the ATT MMA Level 1 Certification
    - Mestre Liborio plans for this to be done when seminars are held for any of the ATT MMA Level 1 schools. These seminars are done by any of ATT's Professional Fighters. Not only will they be able to give an excellent seminar to those school's students, they will be able to see how the isntruction has been carried out, and the subesquent level their students have acquired. ATT's Pro fighters will also be able to give a report on the Instructors training levels as well, to ensure quality control. If it is not up to level, Certification can be taken away until they can re certify to ATT's standards.

    ***It has already been posted by Golden Jonas that none of these schools took this course to build MMA figthers. It's to give a basic MMA course to existing students, no more, no less. It's been proven twice now, but two seperate people that no mis representation is being done by two seperate schools that have been certified ATT MMA Level 1.***

    After reading Vince Tortellini's quasi apology about his original post might posssibly being one sided as those two schools are competitors, it makes me wonder how much bullshit was spewed to besmirch the good name of ATT, and that school.

    I'd like to close by saying that Liborio thanks you all involved for the positive criticism of the ATT MMA Level 1 program, and that he wants to have the BEST program to spread MMA to those students who don't want to fight in a cage, but learn the basic parts of MMA, or do not have access to a school that could teach the basics due to location.

    Edited to add...


    ATT 4 LIFE
    Last edited by Pandinha; 2/14/2008 9:46pm at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  2. Wolf is offline
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    T3h R34l Gangnam Style!

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2008 9:44pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for that Anthony. I don't have much to add. I see how people can be skeptical about the 3 day thing. No matter how you look at that it sounds tough, BUT at this point I'm willing to give this the benefit of the doubt simply because of ATT's prior reputation.

    Now, before any of you scream, HYPOCRISY!!!! No, it's not. ATT has a prior reputation for excellence, and they have represented themselves extremely well under strong criticism. They have answered all questions, and even reacted based on what's been said. I defy you to find any other program we've attacked conduct themselves in this manner. It may be unorthodox and sound strange that it would be possible for this to work, but I think this is one time when a wait and see applies. I say check out some of the cert schools if you want. From all indications if you were to find one of these schools either misrepresenting themselves or giving substandard instruction ATT WANTS TO KNOW ABOUT IT. So, if you have a problem with a schools instruction as a Level I cert, I say let us know here and it can probably be reported to ATT for their action.
  3. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2008 9:55pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandinha
    This is not for a Dojang to go out and train their students five nights a week on how to be a MMA fighter, rather, it's designed for an hour at most a week to go over the basics of mounted position, guard, basic jab, cross, takedown, etc. [/I][/B] Anyone who says different does not have the correct information. These school owners are under contract as well not to represent themselves as anything more than a Level 1 school. No exceptions, if false representation is found, they lose their certification. Liborio is very protective of the hard work he has put in, every fighter at ATT, future fighter, and every student have in American Top team.
    There are legit systems that pass on instructor certifications to people who are already martial arts instructors. Modern Arnis comes to mind.

    That being said, is there a link to a list of level 1 affiliated schools?

    I love watching ATT fighters in the ring. If there are any level 1 affiliates close to me, I volunteer to check quality control by taking a trial lesson. And I am sure there are others on the board who live near schools that would do the same.
    Last edited by Askari; 2/14/2008 9:59pm at .
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  4. Wolf is offline
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    T3h R34l Gangnam Style!

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2008 9:59pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    go here: http://www.americantopteam.com/locations.php

    Scroll to the bottom.
  5. snowman is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2008 10:12pm


     Style: sadness and tears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's a pretty decent response from the boss.

    Thanks for taking the time

    Also will there ever be an Australian Top Team?

    *sigh*
    Last edited by snowman; 2/14/2008 10:14pm at .
  6. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2008 10:23pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandinha
    ATT 4 LIFE
    Quoted for truth.

    Liborio is a class act man. In my time here I have never witnessed a more up front and honest commentary and recognition of criticism in the form of f-bomb grenades that are often thrown at the questioned school, instructor or program.

    Whether you agree or disagree with the program, ATT, my school, stepped up and did their best to address concerns and listen to criticism and even promise that they would thump the sales and marketing agent who may have been misrepresenting Liborio's intent and potentially endangering ATT's reputation.

    Great team, great instructors, great students regardless of location and affiliation and it all flows from the top and is clearly exemplified by Master Liborio's statement.

    Group hug everybody!.......and ATT for LIFE
  7. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2008 12:03am

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandinha
    1. Oldman's phone call to Century, and the hard sell that he received.
    - Mestre Liborio stated that will never happen again. Those students who come for Level 1 Certification are there to sweat and learn. It is a different case if the school owner is there to watch, and one of the instructors who will be teaching from their school. The only person certified to teach ATT Level 1 MMA would be the instructor training and learning. "Someone who cannot pass the course, in a wheelchair, whatever, will not pass this course". Liborio went on to say, "If they can't pass the course midway, have an issue which they cannot continue, I'd rather refund the remainder of their money". These students must pass.
    Very good. Very reassuring to clear that up.


    2. The 3 day course study.
    - Mestre Liborio confided to me that he spent considerable time working on this program before making an offer to the public. Is this the same as what ATT's Profiessional Fighters? No it's not. Is this the same lessons taught to ATT's beginner MMA students. Yes. Liborio wants eveyone to get this straight, he is not teaching these Martial Arts Instructors how to be MMA fighters, MMA coches, or MMA Instructors. This course is to give the basic knowledge with a 3 day seminar, followed up with DVD instruction from ATT on what they learned during the 3 day Seminar. This is not for a Dojang to go out and train their students five nights a week on how to be a MMA fighter, rather, it's designed for an hour at most a week to go over the basics of mounted position, guard, basic jab, cross, takedown, etc. Anyone who says different does not have the correct information. These school owners are under contract as well not to represent themselves as anything more than a Level 1 school. No exceptions, if false representation is found, they lose their certification. Liborio is very protective of the hard work he has put in, every fighter at ATT, future fighter, and every student have in American Top team.
    *
    There is nothing wrong with teaching these seminars, but they are encouraging these MMA newbies to go off now and teach others. What other credible school encourages students of theirs with less than a week of training to now go and open their own schools and teach others? Where is the rationale? This is unforgivable, and would not be tolerated around here if any other school or organization were implementing such a program.

    3. Quality Control of the ATT MMA Level 1 Certification
    - Mestre Liborio plans for this to be done when seminars are held for any of the ATT MMA Level 1 schools. These seminars are done by any of ATT's Professional Fighters. Not only will they be able to give an excellent seminar to those school's students, they will be able to see how the isntruction has been carried out, and the subesquent level their students have acquired. ATT's Pro fighters will also be able to give a report on the Instructors training levels as well, to ensure quality control. If it is not up to level, Certification can be taken away until they can re certify to ATT's standards.
    And what level are they living up to? 1 week BJJ white belts who learned how to throw a jab-cross on a focus mitt? Why are these individuals being permitted to spread their incomplete and ignorant knowledge of MMA and grappling to others? Why are we now expected to tolerate crappling and the like just because a credible MMA camp put their seal of approval on it?

    ***It has already been posted by Golden Jonas that none of these schools took this course to build MMA figthers. It's to give a basic MMA course to existing students, no more, no less. It's been proven twice now, but two seperate people that no mis representation is being done by two seperate schools that have been certified ATT MMA Level 1.***
    I would take no issue with instructors showing their students some MMA fundamentals, but allowing them the ability to MISREPRESENT themselves as certified instructors of an MMA course. (and yes it is misrepresentation, even if ATT sanctions it. They are not qualified by any knowledgeable persons standards to be teaching MMA, even if an MMA camp gives it their stamp of approval. All that does is bring the MMA camps scruples into question).

    I'd like to close by saying that Liborio thanks you all involved for the positive criticism of the ATT MMA Level 1 program, and that he wants to have the BEST program to spread MMA to those students who don't want to fight in a cage, but learn the basic parts of MMA, or do not have access to a school that could teach the basics due to location.
    As I said in the other thread....


    I still don't see what's wrong about this is so hard for some to understand.

    The question is simplel; WHY ARE MMA NEWBIES BEING GIVEN PERMISSION TO TEACH MMA COURSES?

    Even if the Certified Level 1 instructors are completely honest and forthright about their abilities, and what they are teaching, it still does not explain why ATT wants inexperienced people teaching others! This does NOT help spread the sport of MMA, it dilutes it by pairing up people with sub-par instructors.

    I've always been of the camp that believes that no one should be teaching MMA without fighting MMA themselves, and now we have people who took a weekend retreat being given a free pass to crapple and do sloppy kickboxing with students of their own??? Why are we arguing about how honest they are about not knowing much more than basics? Why does that honesty make it OK to teach?? Since when?

    Why is anyone regardless of affiliation defending this!?
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  8. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2008 12:10am

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Somehow, reading Kempofist's post, an old Movie quote came to mind.

    "Only a ninja can kill another ninja".

    Give it a rest. Nothing you say will stop ATT from fulfilling their mission. Or any of the groups before or after ATT. ATT has come on here and made concrete claims to it's program.

    Still that isn't good enough for you.

    IN the original thread, two schools lived up to their end, and did not misrepresent themselves, still not good enough for you.

    I'm beginning to think nothing will, and that's okay. ATT will carry on, and time will tell who is right in this argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  9. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2008 12:21am

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandinha
    Somehow, reading Kempofist's post, an old Movie quote came to mind.

    "Only a ninja can kill another ninja".
    Lame.

    Amazing how after years of bashing crapplers and MMA wannabes passing themselves off as credible instructors with their inexperienced shoddy instruction; and suddenly we're supposed to approve of such acts because someone well respected condones it. I don't engage in idol-worship, so sorry that rationale doesn't exactly sway me.


    Give it a rest. Nothing you say will stop ATT from fulfilling their mission. Or any of the groups before or after ATT. ATT has come on here and made concrete claims to it's program.
    What mission? To put credentials into the hands of monkeys? I repeat, THEY ARE NOT TELLING PEOPLE TO IMPLEMENT MMA FUNDAMENTALS INTO THEIR SCHOOLS. They are TELLING PEOPLE TO START MMA COURSES IN THEIR SCHOOLS.

    Still that isn't good enough for you.
    No, accepting the dilution of the martial arts is not good enough for me.


    IN the original thread, two schools lived up to their end, and did not misrepresent themselves, still not good enough for you.

    I'm beginning to think nothing will, and that's okay. ATT will carry on, and time will tell who is right in this argument.
    They didn't misrepresent themselves? They are 1 week BJJ white belts teaching an MMA course and passing themselves off as certified MMA instructors. It doesn't matter if they are told it's ok by someone who actually is credible. It's misrepresentation no matter how you slice it.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  10. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2008 12:29am

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoFist
    Lame.

    Amazing how after years of bashing crapplers and MMA wannabes passing themselves off as credible instructors with their inexperienced shoddy instruction; and suddenly we're supposed to approve of such acts because someone well respected condones it. I don't engage in idol-worship, so sorry that rationale doesn't exactly sway me.




    What mission? To put credentials into the hands of monkeys? I repeat, THEY ARE NOT TELLING PEOPLE TO IMPLEMENT MMA FUNDAMENTALS INTO THEIR SCHOOLS. They are TELLING PEOPLE TO START MMA COURSES IN THEIR SCHOOLS.



    No, accepting the dilution of the martial arts is not good enough for me.




    They didn't misrepresent themselves? They are 1 week BJJ white belts teaching an MMA course and passing themselves off as certified MMA instructors. It doesn't matter if they are told it's ok by someone who actually is credible. It's misrepresentation no matter how you slice it.
    The only lame thing in this thread is your continous spewing of your views on the program without letting the program play out. You can quote idol worship all day long, but none of those you mentioned have the status of Ricardo Liborio as a teacher, warrior, and coach.

    Please also post your credentials on passing judgement on a program that you haven't trained/particpated in, or have any data on. Other than what you "Feel" or "Think".
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
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