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  1. Art is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2008 12:22pm


     Style: TKD, wrestling, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MastaChance
    Well one could argue the fact that it is'nt as brutal as the kids in Thailand Thai boxing pro bouts when there like 8. I mean come on, how bad is this really, the kids arent hitting hard enough at that age to cause real damage. Also why not let them start that early, I mean look at Buakaw he had his first Thai fight at 8, and look what he has become. It is'nt any different than a TKD or karate or am Thai match. Only thing is it is MMA, with slightly modified rules for the kids, and it seems barbaric to the eye. That is my opinnion.
    I disagre. You can't quantify the arguement with saying that they aren't devloped enough to cause any real damage. True I'm sure they hit hard for an 8 year old but I don't think they could really hurt me. With that in mind they are not developed enough to be taking that sort of punishment. Kids are resilent but I would be deeply concerned with them taking more than one good shot as they are fairly likely to get a concussion.

    In terms of comparisons to other combat sports for kids I really can't compare karate or Thai; however, WTF TKD has a lot of rules in place to protect kids and to keep them excited about competiting without them getting too hurt and scared off. Kids divisions are divided in two ways: age and weight. The age divisions only permit head contact to kids who are in the 14 and up divison. Generally around here that only applies to the Jr. Black belts as well and those specifically who are highly competitive. Second point is that extra equipment is worn to protect the torso, head, shins, etc . . .

    I'm all for kids getting involved in MMA training, but at this point I don't think having them compete is advantageous to their well being. More rule accomodations and more equipment then I see it as possible, but I would much rather see kids getting involved in the single art aspect and compete in that where there are more rules and regs, and then put it together and fight MMA when they are older and more developed.

    My 2 cents.
  2. Cuchulain is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2008 12:47pm


     Style: Sanda/Taijiquan *Hiatus*

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also it's the fact that this is obviously their parents pushing them to compete. How the hell is an 8 yr old motivated to train hard enough for an MMA bout like that? So what if it will make him a great fighter one day. At least if they just make him train once a week or whatever then when he's old enough to decide, he can choose to knock it on the head or train harder.
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2008 1:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Most of us didn't say that did we? Or did you not read the thread? We said there needs to be a better ruleset, better protection, and a better ref.

    Only a few said it shouldn't be allowed at all at that age.
    Don't fool yourself about damage.

    This isn't Thailand where people have to eat. Where the purse is actually more than their parents make at their jobs.
    Exactly!!!!

    Outside the cozy boundaries of the industrialized world, kids are forced to do stuff they aren't really mentally prepared to. Some work so that they can eat. Some have to go through garbage cans to eat. Some go into prostitution.

    I'm not comparing MT fighting at the tender age of 8 to any of the examples above (certainly not to prostitution), but it is a fact that these kids in Thailand fight because that's their chance to make up something for themselves. And any encouragement they get from their parents is by necessity; would they have the financial means to avoid this, I would bet one of my testicles that they would not allow their kids to go into the ring at that age at all.

    In Thailand, it happens due to necessity, to the need to escape poverty.

    In this clip, it happened because of this stupid need to push kids into being little fucking badass sport warriors so that parents can live vicariously through their little victories.

    Apples and oranges.

    And just because something is done in another country, that doesn't necessarily make it a good **** worth adopting here. Clit slicing anyone? Dolphin clubbing? Animal castration by pulling?

    I'd rather see kids that young do gi/no-gi grappling or wrestling, limited boxing with gear, or hell, highly athletic point sparring with foam pads and stuff. Once they turn 12-13, allow a greater level of striking contact with gear (boxing/kickboxing or some sort of pankration rules with no punches to the face, no knees or elbows).

    Seriously, kids younger than 13 do not need more contact than that in competitions to make them good.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 2/11/2008 1:18pm at .
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  4. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2008 2:12pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MastaChance
    Well one could argue the fact that it is'nt as brutal as the kids in Thailand Thai boxing pro bouts when there like 8. I mean come on, how bad is this really, the kids arent hitting hard enough at that age to cause real damage. Also why not let them start that early, I mean look at Buakaw he had his first Thai fight at 8, and look what he has become. It is'nt any different than a TKD or karate or am Thai match. Only thing is it is MMA, with slightly modified rules for the kids, and it seems barbaric to the eye. That is my opinnion.
    1) I'll start by saying should not have used the terms in bred, trailer trash, or hic like I did in my early posts. I'll go ahead and apologize to anyone offended by those terms. I made and emotional reaction to children who were clearly being placed in jeporady and used terms I should not have used, as much as anything because the thing speaks for itself without having to use personal insults.

    2) The video still captured barbaric behaviour, and it still should require a child services investigation. There isn't justification for this without better protective gear and a more qualified ref considering the age of the combatants.

    3) The not as bad as Thailand statement is a pathetic arguement. Other posters have covered why. If that's the best arguement you can make, you should really reconsider your position.

    4) Unless you are a physical trauma researcher or pediatrician, you are absolutely unqualified to say that they weren't hitting hard enough to cause "real damage." Considering the lack of protective gear and the volume of punches the kid in blue took, its entirely possible he might have taken real damage that will take years to reveal itself. Its more likely that he is perfectly fine, but there is no way to tell for sure. If they had the proper protective gear, there would be no guess work involved.

    5) Regardless of anything I said that I shouldn't have, children fighting in Thailand, or wishes of the children, the adults invovled are still culpable for allowing this to happen. Whether they allow this to happen on prior occasions as sparring rather than spectcale is still unacceptable. The fact the children really wanted and asked for it is immaterial. My niece asks to drive my car sometimes. Like these kids, she's also eight. What do you think I tell her?

    6) Regardless of what a previous poster said (not the one I quoted above), the ref did not know what he was doing. Even with pads, there were multiple times it should have been stopped even assuming it was two adults with a 0 - 0 record. Fighters without a long record should have a short rope.

    Also, more than once the kid in blue was not intelligentlly defending himself. It doesn't matter if he was actually hurt or not, he wasn't defending himself well enough. Sure the kid toughed it out, but all he did was learn to be the wrong kind of tough. That's one of the many reasons why kid boxing refs have early stoppages even with good headgear. 5 - 12 years old isn't the time for a kid to tough out a bad round.


    7)
    Quote Originally Posted by MastaChance
    Only thing is it is MMA, with slightly modified rules for the kids, and it seems barbaric to the eye.
    Yeah, there is a reason it looks barbaric to the eye. Its because is was. There are ways this could have been done where is wasn't, all of which were previously mentioned in earlier posts. Respond to those intelligently and others will do so in kind. An arguement that doesn't rely on the cultural norms of a country where prepubescent prostitution is common is good starting point.

    8) I am all for every child learning self defense, martial arts, boxing, wresting, BJJ, MMA, whatever. Eight is an OK age for all those things. But there is a right way and a wrong, and there are safe ways and unsafe ways. This specifically was wrong, and it was unsafe. I already covered why.
  5. MastaChance is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2008 2:29pm


     Style: Muay Thai/BJJ/Boxing/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhemsley
    1) I'll start by saying should not have used the terms in bred, trailer trash, or hic like I did in my early posts. I'll go ahead and apologize to anyone offended by those terms. I made and emotional reaction to children who were clearly being placed in jeporady and used terms I should not have used, as much as anything because the thing speaks for itself without having to use personal insults.

    2) The video still captured barbaric behaviour, and it still should require a child services investigation. There isn't justification for this without better protective gear and a more qualified ref considering the age of the combatants.

    3) The not as bad as Thailand statement is a pathetic arguement. Other posters have covered why. If that's the best arguement you can make, you should really reconsider your position.

    4) Unless you are a physical trauma researcher or pediatrician, you are absolutely unqualified to say that they weren't hitting hard enough to cause "real damage." Considering the lack of protective gear and the volume of punches the kid in blue took, its entirely possible he might have taken real damage that will take years to reveal itself. Its more likely that he is perfectly fine, but there is no way to tell for sure. If they had the proper protective gear, there would be no guess work involved.

    5) Regardless of anything I said that I shouldn't have, children fighting in Thailand, or wishes of the children, the adults invovled are still culpable for allowing this to happen. Whether they allow this to happen on prior occasions as sparring rather than spectcale is still unacceptable. The fact the children really wanted and asked for it is immaterial. My niece asks to drive my car sometimes. Like these kids, she's also eight. What do you think I tell her?

    6) Regardless of what a previous poster said (not the one I quoted above), the ref did not know what he was doing. Even with pads, there were multiple times it should have been stopped even assuming it was two adults with a 0 - 0 record. Fighters without a long record should have a short rope.

    Also, more than once the kid in blue was not intelligentlly defending himself. It doesn't matter if he was actually hurt or not, he wasn't defending himself well enough. Sure the kid toughed it out, but all he did was learn to be the wrong kind of tough. That's one of the many reasons why kid boxing refs have early stoppages even with good headgear. 5 - 12 years old isn't the time for a kid to tough out a bad round.


    7)

    Yeah, there is a reason it looks barbaric to the eye. Its because is was. There are ways this could have been done where is wasn't, all of which were previously mentioned in earlier posts. Respond to those intelligently and others will do so in kind. An arguement that doesn't rely on the cultural norms of a country where prepubescent prostitution is common is good starting point.

    8) I am all for every child learning self defense, martial arts, boxing, wresting, BJJ, MMA, whatever. Eight is an OK age for all those things. But there is a right way and a wrong, and there are safe ways and unsafe ways. This specifically was wrong, and it was unsafe. I already covered why.
    I completely agree on the more protective gear arguement. But to ban these comps for kids all together would ruin there view of it. They might would give up, I mean granted most kids arent really able to know what they want at that age, but there are few the exceptions who are mateur enough to make these decision, ones who understand the danger and all of that involved, so I say let them fight, but give them more gear. Or they could make it Pancrase rules, no strikes to the head, and that would be a good base and intro for younger kids to start MMA, then introduce head contact around the 13-15 age range. I do not think we should ever keep kids from doing it though, maybe keep them oout of the bars and venues such as this one was at, that is a bad enviroment for a kid. i mean can you imagine what they hear after the fight, good job kid you whooped his ass, or somthing like that. I mean there was probably mostly drunken red necks there hotting and hollering at the kids and cheering them on, that might effect them, i wouldn;t let kids fight bouts in those surroundings. That and the gear arguement make perfect sense, but we should never considering banning a sport for children, I mean they play football and **** like that, I see little kids get broken arms and things like that all the time in school sports. So it is'nt any more dangerous in that aspect so long as the use of heavier padding is introduced.
  6. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2008 2:37pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now that you've explained your position better and aren't talking about 8 year olds in Thailand, I generally agree with you. No one in the thread I'm aware of is against kids learning martial arts or practicing combat sports in general. The issue is the way its done.

    The lack of protective gear invites unecessary, preventable injuries. Making this a part of an adult event with all the trappings of a UFC fight invites impaired emotional development. The lack of tight reffing invites both.
  7. JMass is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2008 2:44pm


     Style: BJJ-Caique, Shootfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My first thought was.... "This is sick!" (Not in a good way).

    Then I though about kids in other countries that you see competeing at 16-18 years old with 10 years of training. No one ever says boo about them, and I am sure they train hard and full contact.

    It doesn't make this any less repulsive, but made me think about the double standard.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/11/2008 2:44pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MastaChance
    I completely agree on the more protective gear arguement. But to ban these comps for kids all together would ruin there view of it. They might would give up, I mean granted most kids arent really able to know what they want at that age, but there are few the exceptions who are mateur enough to make these decision, ones who understand the danger and all of that involved, so I say let them fight, but give them more gear. Or they could make it Pancrase rules, no strikes to the head, and that would be a good base and intro for younger kids to start MMA, then introduce head contact around the 13-15 age range. I do not think we should ever keep kids from doing it though, maybe keep them oout of the bars and venues such as this one was at, that is a bad enviroment for a kid. i mean can you imagine what they hear after the fight, good job kid you whooped his ass, or somthing like that. I mean there was probably mostly drunken red necks there hotting and hollering at the kids and cheering them on, that might effect them, i wouldn;t let kids fight bouts in those surroundings. That and the gear arguement make perfect sense, but we should never considering banning a sport for children, I mean they play football and **** like that, I see little kids get broken arms and things like that all the time in school sports. So it is'nt any more dangerous in that aspect so long as the use of heavier padding is introduced.
    Have you realized you are just stringing words together to argue? You are now acting like vulgar.


    Your above paragraph has said what 10-12 other posters have already said. If we all say more gear, better refs, and better a rule set would make it okay, how do you get the outright banning argument?

    Show me where you disagree and I'll shut up. Remember I'm quote happy so think carefully.

    You have outlined every problem AGAIN, ignoring the earlier comments.

    The way it was done needs to be banned. No one is saying ban MMA comps for kids outright. We have said the way this was handled needs to be banned. When you do stuff adults aren't allowed to do (ADULTS) then yes, it needs to be considered.
  9. MastaChance is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2008 2:58pm


     Style: Muay Thai/BJJ/Boxing/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Have you realized you are just stringing words together to argue? You are now acting like vulgar.


    Your above paragraph has said what 10-12 other posters have already said. If we all say more gear, better refs, and better a rule set would make it okay, how do you get the outright banning argument?

    Show me where you disagree and I'll shut up. Remember I'm quote happy so think carefully.

    You have outlined every problem AGAIN, ignoring the earlier comments.

    The way it was done needs to be banned. No one is saying ban MMA comps for kids outright. We have said the way this was handled needs to be banned. When you do stuff adults aren't allowed to do (ADULTS) then yes, it needs to be considered.
    I see. I had misinterpreted that into BAN KIDS MMA, not ban this way of KIDS MMA. So yea actually I agree all together now that i see what everyone was actually trying to make the case about. It only makes since to keep the kids safety first. I mean there not on the way to supre stardom yet, lol. So it would be nice if they had more gear or better rules to keep them from being punch drunk before they can drive.

    Although then you have the case of introducing full contact into the older ages from like 13 up. Will these same kids who have become accustomed to the pads and rules of the younger age groups, be able to handle the newer rule sets and full contact aspect as they get older? Or will it cause them to not want to fight, or worse get in there and become gun shy. It just seems like it would mess with there performance a LITTLE WHEN THEY GET USED TO DOING IT IN PADS AND **** AND THEN GO TO NO PADS AND FULL CONTACT. sorry for the caps, lol.

    I just know that when I first started TKD when I was 13 it was discouraged to make hard contact during class, even when prepping for a tourney. Then on fight day it was full contact to the head and body. I mean it didnt bother me cuz I had trained with my cousin who was much older and a BBa dn more intense about the Tourney so he got me prepared, I just know how some of my peers a thte time did with getting kicked hard that first time. One kid actually sat down and told his parents he didnt want to get hit again, and his dad was like get back up it is part of the game. that kid protested and lost the bout. What i am saying is you get used to pulling punches or not using full contact and then when it comes time either you dont throw with full force or your not gonna be ready to get hit full force. i guess it could work either way though. Really it all comes down to what is going to keep the injuries out and the kids fighting.
  10. MastaChance is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/11/2008 2:59pm


     Style: Muay Thai/BJJ/Boxing/MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JMass
    My first thought was.... "This is sick!" (Not in a good way).

    Then I though about kids in other countries that you see competeing at 16-18 years old with 10 years of training. No one ever says boo about them, and I am sure they train hard and full contact.

    It doesn't make this any less repulsive, but made me think about the double standard.
    I already tried that approach. As you can see, it didnt go over to well, lol.

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