Patriot Ordnance Factory - P415

**auschip** · Posted On: 2/12/2008 4:50pm

I'm no professional, but what benefit will the added expense get you? The upper only runs $1200+ on their site, and full rifles are selling on gunbroker for $2100. I spent less then $700 on my Armalite and haven't had any issues. Admittedly, I only have 600 rounds or so through it, but I'm also not in the position that I have to bet my life on it (going back to the fact that I'm not a professional).

The HK416 still isn't being made for civilians (unless an announcement was made at SHOT). Always remember HK's slogan with regard to civilians. "HK, because you suck, and we hate you."

**SFGOON** · Posted On: 2/12/2008 5:06pm

H&K are a bunch of arrogant krauts who peddle overpriced space guns to overpaid Microsoft nerds and idiot department chiefs with too much money in their budget.

My very favorite issue M-16 ever was made by FN.

The M-4 A4 rectifies a lot of the problems with it's predecessors with the introduction of a piston system. That direct gas **** sucks.

The extra money is for uber-accurization, something you REALLY don't need with an AR. Guys who get hit with a rifle, anywhere on their body, rarely decide to get up after the experience.

**Colby** · Posted On: 2/12/2008 5:29pm

It certainly looks like a better system than the Colt AR-15/A3 I currently own.

If I were going to buy an assault rifle now, I'd just get one of these: http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=22

Not that I'm against the AR platform or anything, but I tend to like a little bigger round. I don't usually mind a shorter barrel either because I'm typically in pretty scrubby areas. In short, I'd prefer some sort of M-14 clone over an M-16 clone.

**SFGOON** · Posted On: 2/12/2008 8:21pm

That is an excellent and venerable weapon. A touch heavy for a ***** like myself, unless of course range is the name of the game.

**datdamnmachine** · Posted On: 2/12/2008 10:17pm

Originally Posted by auschip

I'm no professional, but what benefit will the added expense get you? The upper only runs $1200+ on their site, and full rifles are selling on gunbroker for $2100. I spent less then $700 on my Armalite and haven't had any issues. Admittedly, I only have 600 rounds or so through it, but I'm also not in the position that I have to bet my life on it (going back to the fact that I'm not a professional).

The HK416 still isn't being made for civilians (unless an announcement was made at SHOT). Always remember HK's slogan with regard to civilians. "HK, because you suck, and we hate you."

Yeah, I've heard of HK's admitted dislike for the civilian market. Their loss. It may just end up biting them on the ass.

As for the benefit, the main thing is improved reliability when continuous roads are necessary and decreased carbon fowling. Coupled with that is it's self lubricating features with eliminate the need for lube which in term means you don't have to worry about the parts attracting and trapping dirt and dust as much as their M16/M4 counterparts because you don't have to put a whole bottle of lube on the thing because of the how much carbon buildup you get on the internal parts. Heat on the internal mechanisms is also another benefit. Adding the gas piston (as well as the fact that it doesn't use springs which seem to fail for the gas piston system) means you can run the rifle over a longer period of time without the need to replace parts that would fail because of all the direct heat transfer with the stoner gas system.

Basically, if you are just soda can shooting then it probably doesn't matter. If you find yourself in one of those "oh ****" situations, then things could get a little tricky. I personally wouldn't mind paying the extra cash for ultra high reliability. Cause as we all know, things that aren't quite as reliable tend to enjoy failing when you most need them.

**attakmint** · Posted On: 2/13/2008 1:14am

No way is the M14/M1A an assault rifle.
Does it fire an intermediate cartridge? Only if you consider 30-06 full size, and everything smaller intermediate.
Is it select fire? It can be... but like every other 7.62x51 rifle, automatic fire is not exactly controllable.

So you have a semi-automatic rifle firing a cartridge that is on the bigger side of intermediate... sounds like a battle rifle.

**datdamnmachine** · Posted On: 1/19/2010 12:31am

Bringing another one back from the dead. I went ahead and purchased a P415. Took a year for it to finally ship, damn Obama (nothing against him, but his nomination created a false over-demand in guns and gun related items). Anyways, I will be getting it probably on Wednesday and will write up some initial hands-on with it. My hope is to get it out to the range and try to put 100+ rounds in it. I have co-workers with standard direct impingement AR15 platforms and I want to see the differences in carbon fouling as well as cleanup after some rounds are fired through.

If this thing turns out to be as good as I hope it will be, maybe I'll get a P-308 next...

http://www.pof-usa.com/p308/p308.htm

Oh, and it looks like the Bushmaster ACR (Magpul Masada) finally has a street date:

http://www.bushmaster.com/acr/

**datdamnmachine** · Posted On: 2/17/2010 12:50pm

Ok. So I've had my POF P-415 for a minute and finally went to the range to get some rounds through it. Basically about 100 rounds to test functionality as well as to see how it shots (gas piston vs DI), how generally accurate it is, felt recoil, Fouling and heat transfer, and how easy it is to clean.

1) Functionality - it works. Plan and simple. I didn't notice any function problems. Everything fired as it should.

2) General Accuracy - mind you, I haven't zeroed anything but the rounds landed in the same general area. This was from a distance of about 75 feet for some shots and 21 feet for others. I was using some regular 8.5 by 11 inch paper. I was able to put multiple rounds on top of each other and pretty much got everything on the paper and in the same general area. Once I zero and put more rounds down range (shot my friends AR once at the range last year but before that, hadn't shot anything at all since about mid-2003 in the military) I'm sure accuracy will improve greatly.

3) Felt Recoil - I honestly didn't feel anything different from a normal AR. When I get out to the range again, I will do a side-by-side comparison between a DI AR and this one (gas piston).

4) Fouling and Heat Transfer - very minimal if any. Mind you, I shot only 100 rounds and usually 20 at a time. I did shoot 20 rounds though pretty fast to determine the head transfer. It was very small. The fact it, right after shooting, I checked the chamber and bold and it was cold to the touch. I wiped my finger across the chamber to check for fouling and it was very little. The chamber looked like it did when I got it from the gun shop. As it stands the piston system does a great job of significantly decreasing heat transfer and fouling into the action. If this was a normal DI weapon, the bold, chamber, etc would have been coated with carbon. Also, I fired without using any lube (as you are meant to with this weapon).

5) Easy to Clean - Yes and no...so to speak. Let me explain:

The Good - The bolt, bolt carrier, charging handle, and upper receiver were pretty easy to clean. I basically just wiped it down with a rag. removed all the fouling and I mean ALL. It was pretty crazy. Especially for those of us who are used to cleaning M16's and SAW's in the military. The lower receiver was clean and pretty much free of fouling. Although it is not coated like the internals of the upper receiver and the gas piston system, I pretty much just wiped it down with a rag as well.

The Bad (sort of) - The gas plug and piston, by its nature, receives the brunt of the fouling. It is coated as well but it isn't as easy to clean as the other parts. You can wipe a lot of fouling off of it with a rag but it takes a bit more elbow grease. In fact, it takes a scotch-brite scrub pad to really clean it up. Maybe even some solvent or CLP to loosen it up. Not to say it is stuck on there. However, just like no stick pots and pans, if you get enough on there, you have to get the built in layers off first before you can wipe off the rest. The same holds true for the gas plug and piston. Again, that is the nature of this gas system.

Summary:

The system seems to be generally accurate and reliable. The felt recoil seems to be on par with any other AR-style direct impingement systems. This system transfers very VERY little carbon fouling and heat into the action. The bolt face take a bit of fouling, but that is normal considering that is where the round sits. The gas plug and piston takes the brunt of all fouling to ensure it does not go into the action. Cleaning of the upper/lower receiver, bolt, bolt carrier, and changing handle was accomplished was easy via the use of a rag to just wipe those parts down. The gas plug and gas piston do take the brunt of the fouling and, as such, require a bit more elbow grease and a green scotch-brite scrubby pad to really clean it good. However, even dirty, this carbon buildup on the gas plug and piston do not affect functionality.

So far, everything looks good and, surprisingly, what I read about it, pretty much was accurate. I was even aware that I would have to put some work into cleaning the gas plug and piston. It is a bit heavy, but that is because of the large extended accessory rail. For more information see the following link:

http://www.pof-usa.com/p415/p415.htm

And here is a gratuitous picture: