American Top Team, Say It Ain't So!

[Kentucky Fried Chokin]

Going off what Wolf was asking, has anyone ever been rejected and told "sorry, you're not good enough after three days to teach the basics of MMA. We can't certify you."?

[Roidie McDouchebag]

This seems extremely distasteful and greedy to me...but it's sort of Robin Hoodish, IMO.

[Vince Tortelli]

Okay, this is my useful, non drama whore contribution this thread: A list of Level 1 ATT certified academies, direct from ATT's own website.

Zandri's Martial Arts
Michael Brooks 203.775.7150
317 Federal Road Unit D3 Brookfield CT. 06804

ATA Black Belt Academy
Kathy Lee 501.821.8838
5501 JFK Little Rock, AR. 72116

Pak's Martial Arts Academy
Stephanie Davis 386.336.3437
4801 St. Johns Ave. Palatka, FL. 32117

Dynamic Duo Martial Arts & Fitness
Araje L'Bert 732.220.0777
84 Veronica Ave. Somerset, NJ. 08873

Jason Flame's Tang Soo Do University
Jason Flame 805-530-0000
5285 Kazuko Ct. A Moorpark, CA. 93021

Tang So Doo University
1494-A2 Madera Road
Simi Valley, Ca. 93065
805.579.9991
http://www.ts/DUKarate.com

USA Karate
Robby Beard 901.373.7338
2819 Bartlett Blvd. Bartlett, TN. 38134

Atomic Black Belt Academy
Master Mark Junday Tel#: 024 76684476
280 Foleshill Road Coventry, England, UK

Lenderman's Academy of Martial Arts
Cliff Lederman 253.531.1963
12702 Pacific Ave. S Tacoma, WA 98444

[Pandinha]

Was it?...

Just Kidding! Sorry, I figured my question would come off like that. I know your blue belt was earned. You put in a ton of time to get it, and no matter how much money you dropped on class you weren't going to get it until you earned it. ATT is well known for good promotions. That's why I'm excited that when I'm up for blue Liborio will be there to check me out since our promotions come from him.

Getting to the point though, this is a little different. A guy calls and wants to do this. So he pays his fee and shows up. Some people just have trouble with the concepts no matter how easy. What if he doesn't get it at the end of 3 days even with the quality of instruction you guys have there. I guess what I mean is, do they check the quality of the guys that come to the program. Considering how difficult the classes probably are (intensity wise) I'm assuming I guy that couldn't hack it would probably just wash out. I mean an 8 hour day of training is no joke, but I'm just curious if they have a way set up to handle folks that struggle.

I remember seeing no less than 4 Pro MMA fighters on the mat off the top of my head, with Liborio heading the class. You know as well as I do, Liborio isn't going to cut corners, ever. Not when his name, his school's name, and everyone associated with ATT is involved. No one is going to fail that class, not because they get passed for paying the money, because Liborio Jorge, Pitbull, Maximus, or any of the instructors there will work with them till it's right. I watched them drill the same goddamn jab, thai kick over and over again till Liborio was satisfied. I am by no means athletic, it took me five minutes to pick up that basic combo. But with anything in the martial arts, it takes time to make perfect so it will work in an alive manner. That part is wholy up to the students and what they do with their training.

Off the top of my head, I remember it was one instructor for 4 to 6 people. This is going back a bit, so I can't really be sure 100%. I think that's a great ratio, as our BJJ class is 1 per 10-15+. Our MMA, is 1 per 10, Muay Thai 1 per 20+.

[snowman]

The spread eagle one makes a point

Perhaps if I put this in a parable.....

And lo, there was a man who had trained in the kung fu of the chimpanzee for five and a score years, and the name of the man was...Andy Ruble. And Andy looked on upon his school, and said, "Lo, my students are few in number, and my wallet is almost empty. What shall I do so that that I may acquire the bread?"
And lo, Andy beheld an MMA gym. And he walked to the gym, and entered into it. And within there was aliveness, with boxing coaches, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu blackbelts, and skilled sparring partners, and much exercise equipment.
And lo, Andy went unto the gym twice and sometimes thrice a week, until the time he was inside the gym numbered unto a day and a night togather.
And then Andy returned to his school of chimpanzee kung fu, and he did paint a sign. And the lenght of the sign was 4 cubits, and it was four cubits wide. And on the sign was written "LEARN MIXED MARTIAL ARTS FOR A REASONABLE PRICE. INQUIRE INSIDE."
And children, the question is, "Is Andy Bullshido?"

[Rooster]

There is no defense to this. Businessmen do it in businesses large and small. I think we can all agree that McDojoism has a distinct shadyness attached to it, and that if someone does it they attach it to themselves. All we have to recognise are the two faces of ATT. It doesn't matter who teaches a 3 day seminar or how intensive it is. Some people put in years of intensive work. 3 days is still 3 days and the amount of material covered, furthermore the retention of it is limited. This is blatant McDojoism, ATT itself still has a good curriculum and gym, end of story.

[Pandinha]

There is no defense to this. Businessmen do it in businesses large and small. I think we can all agree that McDojoism has a distinct shadyness attached to it, and that if someone does it they attach it to themselves. All we have to recognise are the two faces of ATT.

What two faces are you alluding too?

It doesn't matter who teaches a 3 day seminar or how intensive it is.

It doesn't? So say if Rexkwon do decides to teach a 3 day seminar that somehow is on par with a 3 day seminar taught by Ricardo Liborio, that's the same thing right? Wrong.

Some people put in years of intensive work.

How many years did it take you to learn how to Upa? Or do a RNC? Throw a jab, thai kick combo to single leg? Wrong again.

3 days is still 3 days and the amount of material covered,

Other than what I've posted, what do you know of the material covered, how the training was done, or the quality control that was in place? Answer is, you don't. So... Wrong again.

furthermore the retention of it is limited. This is blatant McDojoism, ATT itself still has a good curriculum and gym, end of story.

Do you know the definition of McDojo is? Or are you talking out of your ass?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDojo

McDojo is a pejorative term used by some Western martial artists to describe a martial arts school where image or profit is of a higher importance than technical standards.

No one in this thread has proven this to be a fact.

Qualifications

An individual that runs a McDojo will often have inflated or self-awarded black belt rankings or will belong to a certifying organization that cannot be traced to a known legitimate school or organization of recognized good standing. Frequently these people will be much younger than other instructors that hold similar or higher rank, and will hold rankings in a large variety of styles or arts.

It is common for such fraudulent instructors to "cross-certify" each other. Additionally, they will frequently take titles that imply very high levels of skill and several decades of experience, such as Shihan, Kyoshi, Renshi soke or grandmaster, without having been granted them by any accrediting body. Some even create their own "school" and declare themselves grandmaster of it.

Another frequent tactic is to claim to have been trained in some non-specific place by an unknown "master". Any claims of having journeyed to Asia to train with secretive monks/ninjas/fighting masters are highly questionable and can be generally assumed to be false, particularly if they claim to have learned secret arts that are superior to all other forms. Some instructors will also advertise claims that they are former members of the special forces (e.g. United States Navy SEALs), these claims are also suspect and organisations of ex-service personnel can often refute fraudulent ones.

Waiting for this to be proven as well.

Until this is proven, guess what you are wrong. You fail.

[oldman34]

What exactly is a level 1 certification and what permissions does it grant to the holder?

They have told us what Level 1 is. They (the MAIA have been easy to talk to and dont seem to be hiding anything.

Seriously, if this is the best you can do to drama whore, you are sorely lacking. No one is giving out rank, or any type of recognition that any TMA school can put someone in a cage fighting MMA. It's a 3 day course, teaching the basics of MMA. Better these TMA schools have it, then just say they do.

I hope this isnt meant for me.

Part of the curriculum is striking. TMA instructors should already know how to do this. So thats a gimme.
Of course, that goes back to all the crap TMAs get here on Bullshido. You know...chambered punches, dead training......so do they really know how to strike? (sarcasm)

It (this program) will spread MMA to the masses who dont want to be cage fighters, but do like the all around training you can get.
Yet you must agree that once I train for 3 days why the extra $350 a month? Am I getting $350 worth of videos?
Why not just buy the MMA vids that are already sold by Bas Rutten and make that my program? (for around $300 total)
Would I be condemend for doing that? Do I have to give ATT my cash just to say ,"yeah we teach MMA". Its the same thing.
I already know the basics, so all I need is a professional doing something on a video that I can watch for the rest.
Whats the difference?

How is going to a 3 day seminar then getting the rest from videos "better than just saying I do"?

This is for those instructors to teach the UPA, Guard escapes, armbars, mata leao, throw a punch, thai kick combo. **** I learned in my first 24 hours of training. Were you taught how to do an armbar in the first 24 classes of BJJ? Did you learn how to throw a jab, thai kick in your first 24 classes of Muay Thai? How about takedowns, how long did it take to learn how to do a single leg, or double leg? Was it in the first 24 classes? Yes boys and girls, they trained 24 hours split over 3 days. CAN YOU LEARN HOW TO DO ALL OF THOSE BASIC THINGS IN 24 HOURS? They drilled their assess off. Some of them had video cameras up filming their drilling and the class. I personally thought those were the better ones.

I agree, this is basic stuff. I have a year of BJJ training. Do I really need the ATT cert to teach MMA at my TKD school? If all they are going to teach is that, then I already know how.

Then there is the counter to your argument that they can learn the basics in three days. Yes, they can learn the basics, but who teaches the more advanced stuff in the curriculum like...

Class 1 goes through an introduction to Basic stances, f ootwork, strikes, jabs, clinches, takedowns, and groundwork
Class 2 focuses on Pummeling – integrated with what was learned in Class 1
Class 3 focuses on Kicking – integrated with prior class lessons
Class 4 focuses on Takedown Techniques – integrated with prior class lessons
Class 5 focuses on Blocking – integrated with prior class lessons
Class 6 focuses on Setting up Takedowns – integrated with prior class lessons
Class 7 focuses on Deflecting – integrated with prior class lessons
Class 8 focuses on Advanced Kicks – integrated with prior class lessons
There will be a total of 24 classes- but the remaining classes are still in final stages of editing/authoring- Great outlines don’t exist just yet.

How are the BJJ guys feeling about this? No one is teaching them groundwork in three days, much less by DVD right?


Lets put this in context. Do you think that one can learn enough TKD to reach BB in 3 years? Most people here (MMA and BJJ people) dont. Yet I contend that the core of TKD can be taught and sufficiently learned in 3 years.
So if this (the new MMA cert program from ATT) is the new standard by which we set learning, no one ever needs to say "LOL you have a BB in TKD" on this site again.
However, this goes deeper than that doesnt it? For all the TKD/Karate/Aikido sucks months we've had, dont you think that maybe some people are rightfully LOLing at this?
I will call Mr. Beard today and see when I can come up and watch the curriculum being taught, or at least get some sense of what the curriculum is.

Anthony...you sound kind of defensive about this. The way you are feeling now is how many of us TMA'ers feel when people describe their arts as "belt factories".
Many schools have multiple belts for money purposes, and use them as motivational tools.
On the surface this seems no different.

[oldman34]

That's like asking me if the blue belt I received from Liborio was bought and not earned.

Actually its not.

Lets get this clear though....
No one here should be questioning the programs instructors qualifications. They are impeccable.


Yet there is HUGE difference between two years of BJJ and 3 days of a seminar.

[DCS]

Wondering how many of these 72 hours (3 days) were mat time.