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  1. MrBadGuy is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/07/2008 1:35pm

    supporting member
     Style: Grapplomancer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That was actually a decent response. Allow me then, to pose the following question.

    Can you say all styles are equal despite the amount of time it takes to be proficient in it? If my face-crotch style takes 5 years to become proficient in, yet my BJJ friend can tap me out after a month of BJJ training, are the arts equal? Are arts equal based on ground game as well? Wouldn't you say an art that had both standing and ground components (that weren't complete bullshit) was greater than an art that just had one?
  2. The Fake Macoy is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2008 1:46pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just for clarification, by good teacher do you mean someone who is good at teaching you what they know, or good as in they've structured their classes to properly teach you valuable information? For instance, does a good teacher teach you how to perfectly punch yourself in the face or are they teaching you how to punch something in a proper environment?
  3. cuatro76 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2008 1:47pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good style or bad style depends on what you're goals are (if all styles are "equal") and choosing the best one to fit those goals. If your goal is to become a competitive MMA pro, don't go to Tai Chi classes. If your goal is to relieve stress and meditate on the meaning of life, don't go to a competitive MMA class.

    The good teacher bad teacher issue can mean anything. Like are you learning at a Mcdojo that uses yellow belts to teach white belts? Or does your instructor claim to be a jack of all trades while being a master of none? Or does he just flat out molest the female students while ignoring everyone else in class? There are also great martial artists who simply don't have the aptitude for teaching and get frustrated at why their students aren't as good as they are.

    This is a rather broad topic.
  4. moonscrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2008 1:48pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wouldn't say one is better than another because as I said before the style itself does not compete, attack, or defend. It sits there on a page. Now as for comprehensiveness yes there is a difference (and a vast one sometimes).

    Also what are your goals and talents. Lets say I'm really good at getting kicked in the crotch and exceptionally good at redirecting force with it. If I study BJJ in a couple months I'll be able to tap a lot of people out, but then I hit a wall, because I'm way undertalented at this stuff. So in five months of BJJ I find that every other person around that long can tap me out. Not only that but when I hit My sixth month I find that a couple of the new five monh olds are tapping me out. Say this goes on for a long time.... pretty safe to say I'm done with BJJ as far as my abilities lie.

    But I'm great at getting kicked in the crotch, so I go study that. It's painfull and brutal at first but I keep getting better at it. I study for years And to my surprise I keep getting better at it. Not only am I not being taken out by all the other fifth year crotch-fuers but I'm taking OUT A COUPLE OF THE OLDER GUYS AS WELL. And by my seventh year the guys who have been studying BJJ for six months can't touch me before a well placed nut kick that I'm used to giving to someone much more able to take it.

    See I never could've beaten your average six month BJJ using BJJ, but I could with seven years of kicked-in-the-junk-jutsu. And wehn me and the other guys I studied BJJ are all very old, my crotch kick will probably be more usefull.
  5. Cat Grey is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2008 1:49pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've only ever encountered this question in the context of relative noobs asking "What should I study?"

    In that case, my answer is always: "Find a good teacher. Don't worry about the style." First of all, my experience has been that a bad teacher can rob any style of its usefulness -- and that's not even mentioning the Double-Whammy scenario where a bad teacher has created a bad style of his or her very own.

    Second (in my experience), a lot of styles can be good or bad, depending on who is teaching them. Of course, if a good style is taught poorly long enough that 'poorly' becomes the standard way of teaching it, then it becomes a bad style, but that's a rant for another day. Basically, trying to decide whether school A is better than school B based only on what style they (claim to) teach doesn't work very well.

    Third, people get into martial arts for a lot of different reasons, and not all of those reasons are actually martial. So the working definition of "good teacher" depends a lot on the student. For most people here, I suspect the definition includes things like "can teach me how to fight effectively" and "won't rip me off."

    ...Which brings me to point four: If your definition of a good teacher includes "can teach me how to fight effectively", then for all practical purposes you're looking for someone who already found a good style. At the point, the teacher vs. style question becomes moot.
  6. moonscrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2008 1:51pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes it is a very broad subject, but look at the conversation we've started :)
  7. jadjen is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2008 1:54pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Tae Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's a very broad topic. If you know the teacher or the "style" is bad, find an alternative. A big problem is when people are just starting out, they don't know the difference. By then they've invested so much in it, sometimes they just continue it. As far as the if the instructor can kick the pupils ass question goes, I couldn't see an instructor that wouldn't want his pupils to develop better than him. Otherwise the art would never grow, it would just degrade or stagnate. It would be like me not wanting my children to do better than I did. Those that just come out and slobbernock their students aren't teaching them anything. They're just trying to show off and make themselves look good in front of people who don't know better.
  8. moonscrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2008 2:04pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm only a noob to forum-do. To clarify... I believe that the only thing that matters is what you are doing to improve yourself. In a way there are no good or bad teachers or styles only ones which do or don't allow you to grow as a person. I'm not in this stuff to win a competition, my goals are a bit more... intricate.

    I believe that good or bad is an extremely subjective idea. I'd even be willing to say if you were dedicated to learning martial art and your only option was terrible teacher in a terrible style AND you were of reasonibly high intelligence or stupidity (either/or) you could still get to be the bes fighter out there if you really wanted to. (I'll start ducking again.)
  9. MrBadGuy is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/07/2008 2:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Grapplomancer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by moonscrow
    Also what are your goals and talents.
    Let us assume that this particular individual, because of monetary constraints or otherwise, isn't talented at either BJJ or Crotch Fu, but has to take one because of his aforementioned constraints. For poos and giggles, we'll assume that the teachers are of the same quality, however the god you choose to judge that. If we set everything to equal, BJJ is superior to crotch fu, period. It doesn't even have to be crotch fu; what about Muay Thai? Although crotch Fu toughens your crotch, if you take a round house to the ribs that you aren't conditioned for, that will suck fairly hard, and render your style useless. Crotch fu has no practical answers for chokes; you can hump them while they choke you, but they'll only choke you faster. Crotch fu can't help with arm bars, leg locks, neck cranks. They can try and sprawl by shooting their crotch into the man's back to stop the take down, but that is the extent of their anti-grapple. All crotch fu knows how to do is stop punches with his face, and kicks with his crotch. No grappling. He cannot possibly stop a BJJ'er from killing him, because of the limitations of his style. If there was a "Grapple crotch fu", which included both crotch fu and grappling, wouldn't you admit it was a better style?

    The only problem here is that until that 5 year period, the BJJ guys are owning you, and hard. Even at the 5 year point, the BJJ guys have also been training 5 years. Even if you are junk at BJJ, you will progress, no matter how slowly. To imply that you simply stop progressing is just silly; you hit a plateu maybe, but eventually there will be progression. Their progression at 5 months is equal to your progression at 5 years; god knows what it will be if they have been training 5 years.

    Even if we assume at the 5 year point you become god, the ownage over time plot shows that BJJ is superior to crotch fu for the majority of your martial arts life. You would then have to fight for 4 years more to try and catch up to the ass kicking you've been receiving; this is also once again assuming the BJJ guys aren't getting any better after 5 months.
    Last edited by MrBadGuy; 2/07/2008 2:16pm at .
  10. auschip is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2008 2:12pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by moonscrow
    my goals are a bit more... intricate.
    Invisibility?
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