George Dillman and Prof. Wally Jay ... again.
I'm convinced that Dillman's knock-out stuff is a fraud. His stuff only works with his students but he cant get it to work on reporters or other non-students. But why did Prof Wally Jay say Dillman's stuff is the real deal?
Only Wally Jay can answer that.
And that answer might be colored by a number of things, cultural, profit driven...or maybe he saw some of his true believers get no touch KTFO....or something else.
BUT - only Wally can answer the Beaver.
All above and subsequent answers are - at best - a guess and supposition.
Never met Dillman - but remember him as a winning competitor in (mostly weapons of Okinawa kata, kama in particular) in competition Krotty tourneys....almost 35+ years ago.
And from my previous TMA training - his 'cycle' of creation and destruction really fits the Tao-ist cycle of life. And also fits into Chinese acupuncture points - well, more 'Kappo' than acupuncture.
Results vary wildly - and never was so interested to investigate enough to attend a Dillman seminar. Read his books - and tried them out as advised. Did find a certain concept (actually a combination movement chain) that worked fairly well with a training situation. It was a chain of 3 hits - wrist to bicep to side of neck - with the last being as focefull as the other two. Not hard but substantial. And the last hit - which was a not that hard strike - really did send the receiver into at least a partial collapse. More than enough of a chance to capitalize on.
If we look at trained fighters...those that are honest in their training and become accustomed to being hit hard, hurt - and then keep going - you will find some very hard to put down opponents. The variables are wide - and truly no two opponents are exactly alike.
There is value, though - in understanding this.
I have been involved in 'action professions' for just about 30 years...I have bounced, body guarded and have been a member of NYC Corrections for almost 22 years now. Also, I have dealt well with a good number of street attacks - and I have seen and been a part of too many to count situations - where interpersonal violence was involved.
Every year - for almost 22 years - I am brought back to the NYC Corrections Academy..for qualification training in everything from fire safety to first aid and ALL the rules and regulations - and some of the most useless training in personal self protection. LOL - I would rather they taught Tai-Bo than the crap they teach at my Academy - and trust me - NYPD is hardly any better. In jail, Corrections can not draw a gun - NYPD situational training too often ends with "Pull your wepon'. NOT unarmed anymore.
ANYWAY - there is something that any and all who fight or train for real time self protection know. At least, those who have been around the block a few times.
And that is: sequential follow up movements.
If we consider putting a person into shock - multiple strikes need not be all that hard. The 3 strike sequence from my reading Dillman - seems to do that in a training venue...never found that challenge where this exact sequence was the answer.
But getting hit and moved fast - in different areas - does seem to cause the mind and senses of the attacker to overload. You get a hard hit and your brain trys to figure out what happened...and right in the middle of the very fast micro-moment - you get a new3 pain - and now you have two to work with - and then a third or fourth comes?
The senses get overloaded and the body shuts down to preserve itself.
In corrections work - I have seen more than one inmate **FREAK OUT** in total fear and panic - from a relatively simple cutting and totally non-threating to life wound. Most are on the face...I would guess because blood flow is fast there and hard to see and analyze - all you see is your blood.
Then again - I have seen others that really should have logically been dying - but were still focused to continue to fight and go after their attacker.
Hells Bells, I have even been first response team to an alarm and found the 'officer in charge' in a total panic that sent them to the hospital - Elmherst Hospital - close to Rikers Island - because the inmates were so scary and violent in their fight (note: the officer was NOT in ANY danger at all) - and just the sight of blood spurting from another made them lose their personal professional balance and effected their health.
As this relates to Dillman - or Wally Jay's blessing of Tuite - as mentioned. only Mr. Jay can explain.
BUT - from personal experience - I can easily see why some get KTFO (really shut down) and some might fake it.
And can also see why those that are kind of used to getting hit and hurt - might just stand there and go WTF? Raised toes aside - lack of hit points aside - lack of a low shock point = seems to be a very key point in understanding why this stuff might work or not on any given individual.
Now, of course - there are far more demonstrative and disabling movements.
For the vast majority of attackers- it seems a broken arm restricts more punches, a broken rib or two keep one from breathing and standing erect, Hells Bells, about 30 years ago - a guy grabbed me in a mugging situation in a RNC..not a pro version but enough to be dangerous..and I just stomped into his toes with the edge of my right boot...and he fell like he got hit by a brick. Hit him hard enough with the edge of my boot to crack the heel.
OK - I went out of topic.
Ultimately..in all fairness - only Wally Jay could ever answer the original posters question - and all that I wrote and what may follow - is BShido.
Maybe Wally Jay is prepared to believe in crap.
hypnosis is real, you should see what a good Hypnosis like Ormond McGill can do in his shows, and contry to popular belief you dont need a crystal ball, you can make suggestions to people and put them in a trance easyly if you are experienced enough in the field and I don't doubt for a second that Dillman has some NLP or Hypnosis experience
Well, time and tide and facing that last dance with The Reaper? It has a way of softening the edge people once held onto.
The vast majority here seem less than 40 years of life..much less time in martial study..and Wally and Dillman are even older than this fossil.
When you have taught for a decade or 3 - you will wind up with a hierarchy of 'devoted'..your personal merry marching society...in their eyes - you can do NO wrong. 'They' met your testing standards - they were proud to get your 'fan' belt....and are proud to serve what they were taught.
Now, some of them are dangerous opponents...more might be belt jockeys..BUT - 'they' are all equal in the eyes of Da'Masta.
All students - by nature -seek. What they seek is as varied as one's fingerprints.
All results vary.
The real time truth is found -not in the Octagon..nor actually, in the streets.
It is found in survival..and finding peace and a way to be a better person...and be perhaps more physically strong, flexible and un-afraid of the **** bag that life might throw at you.
MMA guys, BJJ student...MThai (for I spent goodly time and pain and spilled blood there)...like Savate and other "IF YOU BLEED HERE? - You bleed to learn and protect not just yourself...but maybe someone else".
I LOVED THAT..but residual damage caught up with me. I still dip into that cauldron in occasional training..but at 53...I trust my survival skill set. Yeah, I am an old fart that spanned the cutting edge from Judo, JJ, and Shotokan. I won a few trophies in my late teens and early 20's. The list of things I went into spans more than 30 real time dedicated times.
Personally, I feel Wally was much more real time challenged than Dillman.
His small circle has value - and was one of the best evolutions of JJ in his day.
BUT - I do not have to pay my bills by tapes sold...nor even regular MA affiliations.
Wally - only he can answer the original post.
DO NOT ever expect a response...in fact, I would be very surprised if he EVER graced this site.
Spend about 20 + years in study..and do a profession that might see you involved in almost regular real time personal conflict for just 2 years..every damn day. I bet you too, will say only Wally Jay could ever fill the question of the original poster.
EVERYONE else - myself included - can only guess.
THE POSTER ABOVE:
I am a student of Ormond .. a performance magician - a sceptic/bright and pretty well versed in Derrin Brown - and NLP is either a tool to work with or useless..depends.
Hypnosis is not 'real' is IS congruent agreement. I am a performance magician - when the venue suits me...lol...and pays me.
Dillman? I doubt he is a student of Ellman or NLP - but it is a demonstration of trust and set up.
In performance magic -= I will lie and decieve - but the audience does not care...they seek that few moments of astonishment. Free fall. 'MAGIC".My purpose is to provide this exerince - and hours are spent in study of twisting the aces - or escaping the real S&W cuffs..to provide a metaphor that might inspire them.
BUT -such things...demonstrated as concrete items for life saving self protection? The very life saving method? Based on the psy-magician demonstration?
**** they can not do in real self protection.!?
Then that teacher is no less valid than someone who sux at S. Browns saggy teat..nor john edwards cold readings..even Criss Angels and Blains edited content on TV.
HYPNOSIS IS A FORM OF 'CONGRUENT AND CONTROLLED AGREEMENT'....and if those that do basic Shotokan...and do IPPON KUMITE - inn training - it becmes a form of agreement.
Low snap kick get aswered by maybe a gedan bari and a tuzuki thrust.
REPEAT and repeat..drill that into your response t that attack?
It has been 40 years since than -but that what wrote study does.
IT IS VERY EASY - to program the responses of your students....and when that comes from a teacher who never whd to real time defend himslef - ...+ A flyinf snapping wheel kick is the shizz-nitz.
OK -off post again....I need too get to sleep.
RobG, you are one of the most articulate posters iv'e read on this site. some thoughtful posts.
Dude..for some readers I am considered an idiot. Others consider my posts of worth.
I thank you for whatever you got out of the above.and await a few flamers.
I come here -now more than ever before - on the net..to just write from my personal experience. I seek no ....varrots..whatever the **** they are.
I have been in the study for over 4 decades...and have been subject to inter-personal violence shared - far more than the norm or I ever wanted to be. This study shaped my life and relationships.
I am either a good example or a warning. Personal results will vary.
I just - come here at times - to let it out.
And if what crap I write might help someone... = cool.
Bullshido has become a very free place to write, for me.
Far different than a few years ago.
Bullshido is a cutting edge site .... almost equal amounts of real deal and crap. Love it or not -it really is one of a kind.
The real dealers here -they are very direct but kind enough for the newbies to suck it up.
Never - EVER - thought I would find a home here.
Seems that i have my place - at least, for some members.
Thats enough for an old fart like me!
I'm not going to lie, to me, it's like you're talking out of your ass.:booty: I can't make heads nor tails of what you're trying to say, and all I can tell is that you know your hypnosis which makes you a valuable asset to this site... Unlike me.
Originally Posted by RobG
Thoughtful post as usual Rob.
Originally Posted by RobG
I would like to dovetail on one point you make... it is the proverbial fly in the ointment regarding Dillman and Montaguie as well frankly. The problem with vital point attacks is that they are unreliable. I don't mean "unreliable" as the term is used in common usage, in its perjorative sense as in "that guy is a nice guy but unreliable".... I mean from the standpoint of the two scientific concepts that define martial arts probability, namely accuracy and precision.
When evaluating vital point strikes one finds that the accuracy (the ability to select and execute to a target) and the precision (the consistancy one exerscizes in finding that target and being on target with a series of attacks) cannot be consistantly exerscized. People vary considerably in how they react to these attacks.
In the traditional Japanese arts very few of these attacks are actually taught for these reasons. Also, body coverings like coats and armour make the result of these strikes vary considerably. I think that these attacks were in Chinese Arts because in certain parts of China people were malnourished and weak enough that these strikes could consistantly traumatize an opponent.
People who are physically very tough or strong can overpower a lot of strikes of this nature. Although attacking some of these points with a knife (like Sayok Kali) seems to be a valid approach. But a good knife man, if he stabs to the brachial plexis and does not deaden your arm instantly, can quickly slice multiple times to the same area.