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  1. Deadmeat is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 12:58am


     Style: Mixed Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    lol, true - but I meant in simple Randori, not Shiai.

    Oh, I see that you practice both Judo and Aikido - what are your thoughts on crosstraining in the two arts? Has the Aikido benefitted your Judo and vice versa? Which style do you have more confidence/experience with?
    Last edited by Deadmeat; 2/06/2008 1:01am at .
  2. RaiNnyX4 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 11:24am


     Style: Aikido/Judo/BJJ/Naginata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadmeat
    lol, true - but I meant in simple Randori, not Shiai.

    Oh, I see that you practice both Judo and Aikido - what are your thoughts on crosstraining in the two arts? Has the Aikido benefitted your Judo and vice versa? Which style do you have more confidence/experience with?
    I had already been studying Aikido for 2 years before I picked up Judo so initially my Aikido experience allowed me to learn Judo techs rather quickly. However, that was only in the beginning stages. Once I got into the thick of Judo the only thing that helped was more Judo. I would think the same thing would be true of a Judoka going to Aikido.

    However, as everyone here should, I always advocated crosstraining.

    I think the main problem with Aikido, besides a lack of sparring for the most part, is that there doesn't seem to be any clear focus in the art. By that I mean, Judo is clearly a grappling art, Karate is clearly a striking art, Kendo a weapons art, etc. But Aikido seems to take elements of all ranges and not focus particularly on any one.

    The way I have begun to view Aikido is as a sort of transition state art. One that operates best in the transition stage between striking and grappling (think arms length before grips/clinches are taken). This is a rather small moment in most combat situations but if I can use it to my advantage then I will. When I do open grappling with people I try Aikido first, on the way in, and if/when that fails I switch to Judo. Because I believe Aikido to be most beneficial in the transition phase, I would think that knowing how to strike and grapple efficiently would be paramount for performing Aikido techs in a free sparring/MMA type environment. Which is what I believe Ueshiba required of his students in the first place.
  3. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 12:59pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RaiNnyX4
    ..//.. I would think that knowing how to strike and grapple efficiently would be paramount for performing Aikido techs in a free sparring/MMA type environment. Which is what I believe Ueshiba required of his students in the first place.
    No, there was never a pre-requisite of any kind to study with Ueshiba, its just that almost all of his early deshi were already competent in other systems before learning from Ueshiba; that his system and later, his ideological thinking appealed to those existing students and those which followed.

    What you have to remember is that there was a resurgence of martial arts after the occupation of Japan had ended, and the rise of the Butokukai again after the war did a great deal to promote both koryu and gendai budo. Remember that Japan's once ultra-imperialistic nation was now going through another new era of westernisation, baseball was being played in schools rather than Judo; and the once overtly war like martial mentality having been very much brought into the forefront of people's minds through the Japanese war machine of WWII, was likewise changing to a more utopist and "civilised" way.

    If you look at Useshiba’s aikido in Iwama during the 1930’s you’ll see a martially orientated system. Look again just 20 years later – through the development and direction taken by his son Kisshomeru at the Aikikai in Tokyo and you will see that although the essence of the system remained the same – it was a budo – the emphasis was already metamorphosing into a less martial practice – This process has continued to this day where almost no bukiwaza is practiced in Shinjuku yet, is it one of the primary foundation skills of older methodology aikido.
  4. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 1:13pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Continued... (Sorry had a connection issue ?)

    ... Herein lies the problem within the majority of aikido world wide. Iwama is/was a small village where only a relatively small number of people learned of Saito Morihiro and had the opportunity to study with him, the Aikikai on the other hand being a much larger entity in the cosmopolitan city of Tokyo attracted a great many students (and still does) yet the aikido studied between Iwama and Tokyo could easily be seen as entirely different despite the fact that both were for some time technically under the control of Ueshiba Morihei.

    Taking this now to a much wider audience, Aikido has been in Europe since 1952 (I'm not sure about the Continental US) but, you can see that the path on which aikido has taken has been very much under the auspices of the Kisshomeru Ueshiba line, and later his son Moriteru. Whilst several other legitimate "styles" of aikido have emerged the number of those and their students vs. those studying Aikikai based aikido is small by comparison.

    There are far more hippy-tree-hugging aikidoka than those who wish to learn a martially orientated aikido.
  5. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 2:26pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Simio de las Rocas
    If you look at Ueshiba’s aikido in Iwama during the 1940’s...
    Fixed
    :occasion1
  6. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 2:42pm

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ta

    ......................
  7. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 5:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Simio de las Rocas
    Notice he mentions that aikidoka would have the advantage in learning BJJ - Not the other away around.
    That's because a BJJer who tried to learn aikido would recognize that it was a waste of time.
  8. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 5:37pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In all seriousness does anyone know of a bjj blackbelt who then went out to learn anything besides wrestling, judo, sambo or boxing/mt/kickboxing?

    Even six month weight belts at my school that have tried other things since starting bjj comeback, disgusted.
  9. RaiNnyX4 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 7:20pm


     Style: Aikido/Judo/BJJ/Naginata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    In all seriousness does anyone know of a bjj blackbelt who then went out to learn anything besides wrestling, judo, sambo or boxing/mt/kickboxing?

    Even six month weight belts at my school that have tried other things since starting bjj comeback, disgusted.
    I think if said student went to an Aikido dojo that actually had martial merit (Iwama, Shodokan, Yoshinkan, etc.) then there's a chance they might not think it's crap. As an Aikidoka myself, most of the Aikido I see gives me the same disgusted feeling as the 6 month BJJ student.
  10. RaiNnyX4 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 8:10pm


     Style: Aikido/Judo/BJJ/Naginata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Simio de las Rocas
    No, there was never a pre-requisite of any kind to study with Ueshiba, its just that almost all of his early deshi were already competent in other systems before learning from Ueshiba; that his system and later, his ideological thinking appealed to those existing students and those which followed.

    What you have to remember is that there was a resurgence of martial arts after the occupation of Japan had ended, and the rise of the Butokukai again after the war did a great deal to promote both koryu and gendai budo. Remember that Japan's once ultra-imperialistic nation was now going through another new era of westernisation, baseball was being played in schools rather than Judo; and the once overtly war like martial mentality having been very much brought into the forefront of people's minds through the Japanese war machine of WWII, was likewise changing to a more utopist and "civilised" way.

    If you look at Useshiba’s aikido in Iwama during the 1930’s you’ll see a martially orientated system. Look again just 20 years later – through the development and direction taken by his son Kisshomeru at the Aikikai in Tokyo and you will see that although the essence of the system remained the same – it was a budo – the emphasis was already metamorphosing into a less martial practice – This process has continued to this day where almost no bukiwaza is practiced in Shinjuku yet, is it one of the primary foundation skills of older methodology aikido.

    Continued... (Sorry had a connection issue ?)

    ... Herein lies the problem within the majority of aikido world wide. Iwama is/was a small village where only a relatively small number of people learned of Saito Morihiro and had the opportunity to study with him, the Aikikai on the other hand being a much larger entity in the cosmopolitan city of Tokyo attracted a great many students (and still does) yet the aikido studied between Iwama and Tokyo could easily be seen as entirely different despite the fact that both were for some time technically under the control of Ueshiba Morihei.

    Taking this now to a much wider audience, Aikido has been in Europe since 1952 (I'm not sure about the Continental US) but, you can see that the path on which aikido has taken has been very much under the auspices of the Kisshomeru Ueshiba line, and later his son Moriteru. Whilst several other legitimate "styles" of aikido have emerged the number of those and their students vs. those studying Aikikai based aikido is small by comparison.

    There are far more hippy-tree-hugging aikidoka than those who wish to learn a martially orientated aikido.
    I am already aware of the history of Aikido (though I'm sure most people are not). But I was pretty sure that I read or heard from somewhere (hopefully somewhere reputable) that basically said Ueshiba didn't want noobs in his dojo in the early days. Since I can't remember where I heard this from I will give you the benefit of "video or it didn't happen".
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