Thread: Taking Someone's Rank Away
11/09/2003 3:51pm, #11
i always thought rank is a little arbitrary. seems it depends a lot of times on learning a bunch of forms or techniques, which isn't necessarily imply that you're any good. i think skill is more important than rank. once you try out someone's skill, you'll have a much better idea of where they are than if they tell you what rank they are.
11/09/2003 4:05pm, #12
Yiliquan1 makes some good points. But remember that an instructor's livelihood sometimes counts on his "rank". Fortunately, there's always competition as an antidote.Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
11/09/2003 5:46pm, #13
- Join Date
- Jun 2003
Personally, I've never trained at a school that even awarded belts. My JKD school has an internal ranking system, but its impossible to know who is at what phase. The "ranks" are just something to tell the trainee what to focus on in training. My grappling school doesn't have any rank at all. So I really have no clue about anything extraneous that goes along with obtaining/receiving rank. However, I've always liked something that my girlfriend's longtime shotokan school has done. If someone from their school defeats a higher rank in competition, they give that person the same colored belt to wear as the person they beat. They still have to test later for the belt, but they get to wear the new belt as a symbol of their fighting prowess.
11/09/2003 5:50pm, #14
- Join Date
- Dec 2002
That is retarded. That practice doesn't raise the bar for obtaining rank, it lowers it. Like I said before, I know MANY blackbelts that couldn't defeat a crippled dwarf, but under the system you set out, ANYONE than beats one of them instantly becomes a black belt. That is simply ridiculous.
11/09/2003 6:37pm, #15
- Join Date
- Feb 2003
That's laughable, really. But it just goes to show that he was paying for his belt, not earning it.
I'm positive he's a much better martial artist now.
11/09/2003 8:06pm, #16
As a further explanation...
In Yiliquan, we have specific requirements for each testing (I am sure other arts are the same). There are content requirements (knowing specific forms), there are ability requirements (physical fitness stuff, e.g. so many push ups, horse riding stance for a specific period of time, etc., as well as breaks - concrete, not wood), and there are academic requirements (presenting papers of specific length on required or approved topics).
However, as the student's knowledge increases, so too do the requirements. You are subject to performance of all forms at any time. You are quizzed on the application of techniques, as well as the interpretation of forms, neither of which have set answers. You are tossed into a group of senior students, and required to fight until the test administrator is tired of seeing you get beat on (this isn't as bad as it sounds). So skill is a big determiner of who gets "promoted."
The guy we sacked cut the requirements in half because he felt we were driving students (and their tuition) away... He hasn't held a real job in years, and his income from tuition is his grocery money. A + B = McDojo.
11/10/2003 12:53am, #17
- Join Date
- Nov 2003
- none yet
Perhaps you shouldn't be awarded a belt until you meet the requirements well enough to teach another person
11/10/2003 1:07am, #18
The guy we sacked was, at one time, fully versed and qualified for the rank he had attained. We didn't have a formal program for certification of instructors in place (though the guidelines have been around for a long time), and when he asked to teach, he was given the green light.
Sometime later, after having lost several jobs (all of which were easy to get and easy to keep), the last thing he had going for him was his school and students. He did some looking into franchising of martial arts schools, the whole independent evaluation and ranking scams that exist all over, spoke with some kempo schools who apparently have pretty prosperous franchises going on (which is where he allegedly came up with the idea of half form requirements), and voila! His own version of a McKwoon.
Since then, we have cracked down on what our folks do. If someone wants to go their own way and do their own thing, not only are we okay with that, we hope they stay in touch from time to time to let us know how they are doing... They are still sort of family to us. No hard feelings. When they soil the name of our art, our association and everyone associated with it by doing things that sully our collective reputation, well, that's just different story.
11/10/2003 3:31am, #199chambersGuest
Man, poor guy got down on his luck and so he decided to sell out his martial arts training to get money for food. Sad. "Will lower my standards for giving my students rank for food." That is pretty sad. I blame George Bush and this crappy economy for this. I think maybe someone should have taken this guy some food instead of stripping his rank. Maybe he could have been reformed. Maybe someone should hire him to wax their cars and paint their fenses.
... Find hungry samurai. :(
11/15/2003 6:40pm, #20
Originally posted by Yiliquan1
- Join Date
- Jul 2002
- Sioux Falls, SD
- Tai Chi & TKD
I'll probably get flamed for this, but...
Skill is earned and developed.
Rank is granted or given.
You get the rank by having the skill, but rank does not confer skill, nor necessarily indicate skill levels...
Rank can be taken away. This shouldn't be done thoughtlessly, nor for minor violations. We had an instructor that compromised the integrity of our art (he only required halves of forms to be known, didn't teach the required amount of material, etc.), and refused to conform to the standards we had adhered to for decades.
So he got reduced and $hitcanned. He was given several opportunities to fix the mess he created, but he was too concerned with his meal ticket to do so. Out he went.
Touchy subject, sure, but sometimes you have to deal with folks who will degrade the entire system...