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  1. mypaiges is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2008 3:58am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why don't you go after TRS who wrote all that marketing materials? Your other post also says TRS has done this in the past as well. So can't you go after them, the on screen people can't control what TRS puts on the box.
  2. mypaiges is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2008 4:06am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why isn't anyone going after TRS and asking them to provide copies of the marketing strategies? Olorin says there is another guy he looked into that had the same crap on his video box and asserts that TRS is known for this behavior., has anyone contacted the owner over there and insist he provide his proof for his false advertising claims?
  3. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2008 11:55am

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think we have been quite critical of TRS as one can see by the comments various people have made about them in this thread. However, the problem we face is that typically the talent and TRS imply the other is responsible for the facts claimed in the ad copy.

    1) I've asked Ray to reproduce a copy of his contract with TRS in which it states they have control over advertising.

    2) Alternately Ray could produce an affidavit in which he attests to what he specifically told Bob Pierce about his background back in 1990 or 1991 when this tape set was first produced.

    Either, or both of these steps would help resolve who decided to make what claims.
  4. Olorin is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/03/2008 9:51pm

    supporting memberhall of fame
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    My name is Ray Ellingsen,

    Obviously I was a little dismayed at being attacked without being questioned directly first, but after surfing this site I was fairly impressed at the intent of these forums, and while it is not pleasant being a sacrificial target, this is a site that is long overdue.
    First off thank you for responding to this thread.

    I would have talked to you first if I had found a way to contact you. After numerous searches I found no way to get in contact with you directly. So I contacted TRS and put a thread on your IMDB account.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    First off, I'm sure that anyone who has done a video for TRS will agree that TRS's advertising style is "overly sensationalistic". I know, this is a gross understatement.
    You admit that their advertising is “overly sensationalistic” and that even calling it overly sensationalistic is a “gross understatement.” Not to put words in your mouth but another way to put that is that TRS stretches the truth into lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    At the time the videos were done I was not terribly pleased with their ad style. I signed a waiver that assured me that “while the advertising may seem sensationalistic, it does not outright lie."
    Do you still believe this today? Did TRS lie in the information they presented about you?

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    In retrospect, I suppose that it might be technically true, but it does stretch the truth beyond credibility.
    Not to be rude but that is called a lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    In the beginning I protested TRS's ads repeatedly, but after speaking with numerous other guys who experienced the same thing with their videos at TRS, I shrugged my shoulders and forgot about it.
    The problem is that a lot of guys on their site have allowed TRS to write things about them that are not true or that stretch the truth to the breaking points.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I should however, at least set the record straight here. The TRS ad states that I am (was) a "respected bounty hunter". The only people I know of that call themselves bounty hunters are "Dog" and "Boba Fett."
    So you never told TRS or Bob Pierce that you were a “bounty hunter?” Bob stated earlier that he was perfectly comfortable in the way he portrayed your add.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    In 1990- 91 I directed a documentary on Bail Enforcement and in the course of that process I interviewed Ray Hawkins and Gary Stafford (fugitive recovery agents) and worked cases with them. Over the course of this we made several arrests and endured way too many dry runs. I have made arrests with them and retained the arrest records and dockets for my research. How I became a "respected bounty hunter" only TRS knows.
    So was this more of a ride along for the purposes of the documentary? Have you ever collected a bounty, worked for a Bail Bondsmen, or done anything that validates the way TRS presented you?

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    As for the U.S. Marshalls, while I know several individuals who work for various federal agencies (they are both students and friends), for the record, I have never personally claimed to be, nor have I ever been employed by a federal agency or been employed as a sworn peace officer. I have read several interviews that I supposedly conducted (that I did not) that have quoted me as "working with law enforcement". They were forced to print a retraction which I noticed did not get mentioned in this thread.
    I did not mention retraction because I did not find them. I did find references to articles/advertisements outside of TRS Direct that stated that you were a US Marshal…etc.

    This reference parrots the TRS material as does this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I have guest instructed numerous seminars and instructed 2 law enforcement departments in arrest and control tactics. If the owners of this site would like verification from the departments themselves please contact me and I will forward that information, but would ask that you be discreet and only post their names if they approve it.
    If you send the information we will check it out, but having worked with a police department is not the same kind of thing claimed in the TRS advertising.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I cannot speak for TRS.
    So do you disavow TRS’ advertising of your background?

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I do appreciate this site and hope that both the moderators and members will actually look for the truth and not abuse our freedom of speech.
    I spent about four months looking into this…I looked for the truth and found that TRS Direct grossly misrepresented your credentials. From your previous post I do not think you disagree with this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I also get a little bent by posers who boast and try to elevate their reputation beyond their actual skills.
    Then don’t let Bob Pierce misrepresent your reputation, experience, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    In closing, I am not responsible for the sales pitch that distributors put on the box. I sent TRS my bio (which is essentially what is written in this thread) and expected them to adhere to the facts to some extent.
    You are in fact responsible for the way TRS represents you. It’s your face on the box, your name on the product, and your good name that TRS seeks to exploit.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I have noticed that nobody has commented on the contents of the videos themselves. I expect some criticism there, after all its easy to criticize other peoples work. I'm pretty used to that. The content and techniques inside are mine.
    I never watched any of the videos. I focused this thread on the claims made by TRS Direct.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I look forward to Olorin's response and, while I do not keep up on these threads, I will make myself available by email.

    Ray Ellingsen
    PS what was up with the rubber bullets in The Rain Makers?
    .
    Last edited by Olorin; 3/03/2008 11:04pm at .
  5. outpost is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/04/2008 4:54am

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     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Olorin,

    There's a lot to respond to here, but I'll attempt to be thorough. No, TRS did not present my credentials in a direct manner. That, as I was told by them, would not be very exciting nor would it sell tapes. Over a decade ago (when these programs were done...on VHS) I did not think much about how TRS was selling their products and assumed they knew more about marketing their products than I did. I did not agree with them but was not confident enough put my foot down to stop it. Having a video on the market was (to me) more about documenting my skills at the time and using that to develop better techniques for the future. I know you want me to tell you directly that TRS lied, but in all fairness to them, I should have taken stronger actions to stop them. I just didn't know any better then (of course, ten years later, it is painfully obvious to me now).

    With regard to fugative recovery. I learned from Ray Hawkins that only an idiot calls himself a bounty hunter, so no, I did not ever use those words. I have never referred to myself as a bounty hunter. When the tapes came out, TRS requested copies of the arrest reports and dockets (bail forfeitures from the bail bondsmen, etc...). Those were provided to TRS. Fairly mundane stuff that outlined the cases we worked for the documentary as well as Gary Staffford's case files (at the time).

    While I did "ride along" a lot, Ray also turned over several cases to me and I, along with a partner, made several arrests and bookings. In 1990, picking someone up only required the bond paperwork as your warrant. The cases I handled consisted mostly of being a glorified taxi driver. We picked the skips up early in the morning at their homes and in one case, at the guy's work (at a Circle K). And yes, we were paid for this (although I cannot recall the bail amounts, of which we were paid a percentage of).

    You are correct that I need to be more responsible for things that are advertized about me. Unfortunately, as I have said, I did not assert myself due to my lack of experience in the video market at the time. I would like to think that in the last decade I have become a little more astute in how I am represented. The last video I worked on for TRS was two years ago, and while I have not seen their advertizing for it (or the project itself on the market) I have been assured by TRS that it portrays my experience accurately. It does not have anything to do with fugative recovery as I have not been involved in that world for well over 15 years.

    I have no current interest in the video market for martial arts instructional content and have not for some time. The last video I participated in two years ago was a final culmination of what I have learned and I was happy to be able to document it. I do not agree with TRS's sensationalistic ad style and never have. I have no intentions of ever working with them again for numerous reasons. I have nothing against Bob Pierce personally and while I do not endorse TRS's advertizing methods, I do not judge them either. I was trying to make a living at the time of those videos and presented the techniques (content) responsibly. I cannot dispute that the box description was horribly inaccurate.

    Mr. Browning seems to have already judged and sentanced me. I do not blame him based on the information on the surface, however, if he must judge me, then judge me on the content inside the programs. For that I will hapily abide by his criticism. The intention for those instructional tapes, as well as the program I directed entitled "the magnificent seven", starring seven very talented martial artists, was to present numerous self-defense concepts and to document them. If you watch the content you will see that I do not advocate any irresponsible actions nor do I sensationalize any techniques. I am truly regretful that those intentions have been tainted by lurid advertizing.

    I hope that my candid responses have conveyed my intentions. I appreciate Olorin's straight forward questions and hope I have been as direct in kind. I am not interested in a protracted interrogation, hence the reason for me responding both timely and honestly to you. As I have stated before, I do not follow the martial arts world very actively anymore but I did want to avail myself to respond to this subject. The best of luck with your website.

    Oh yeah, about the rubber bullet thing...it's a long story, but Olorin, if you want to email me sometime you are more than welcome to come hang out on the set with me during the film I'm working on this summer and I'll tell you all about it.

    Ray Ellingsen
    Last edited by outpost; 3/04/2008 5:00am at .
  6. Olorin is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/04/2008 10:18pm

    supporting memberhall of fame
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    No, TRS did not present my credentials in a direct manner.
    No they did not. Honestly I have no idea about your martial arts skills. I simply took what TRS said and checked it out. Whatever your true credentials, they were lost in a cluster **** of TRS marketing nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I did not agree with them but was not confident enough put my foot down to stop it.
    If you have the time, take a look through TRS’ other instructors, I wonder how many others this happened too.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I know you want me to tell you directly that TRS lied, but in all fairness to them, I should have taken stronger actions to stop them. I just didn't know any better then (of course, ten years later, it is painfully obvious to me now).
    Stop them from doing what? And why is it obvious now? I understand that you can not just come out and say it…so I will…TRS fabricates their talents credentials. I think you were taken advantage of by Bob Pierce. He does not care if your name gets dragged through the mud, hell he stated that he was just advertising your credentials as you presented them to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    When the tapes came out, TRS requested copies of the arrest reports and dockets (bail forfeitures from the bail bondsmen, etc...). Those were provided to TRS. Fairly mundane stuff that outlined the cases we worked for the documentary...
    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    The cases I handled consisted mostly of being a glorified taxi driver.
    And they took the information and wrote this…

    “A veteran trainer of sensitive U.S. Military specialists, he honed his skills as a hot-shot "skip chaser". Ray's current job is hunting down the nastiest criminals who skip bail in Los Angeles, the most dangerous "market" in the U.S. More than half of his take-downs are repeat violent offenders with rap sheets a mile long, thus ensuring that they will involve serious violence.”

    “The man behind teaching these skills is Ray Ellingsen. Ray is one of the most respected "bounty hunters" in the business - a veteran trainer of a sensitive U.S. Military specialists, he honed his breathtaking fighting skills by fighting hand-to-hand with the kind of human scum you can only hope you'll never run into yourself. As a hot-shot "skip chaser", Ray's current job is hunting down the nastiest criminals who skip bail in Los Angeles (the most dangerous "market" in the U.S.). More than half of his take-downs involve serious violence - his life is on the line every moment he's on the job, since the bastards he tracks down are the worst: Repeat violent offenders with rap sheets a yard long, and brain-curdling drug histories.

    When Ray gets a call from the U.S. Marshall's office to bring in a "skip", he is almost guaranteed an adventure that would scare the piss out of you or me.”
    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I have been assured by TRS that it portrays my experience accurately.


    I bet you a Coke it won’t.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I do not agree with TRS's sensationalistic ad style and never have. I have no intentions of ever working with them again for numerous reasons.
    That’s good to hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I cannot dispute that the box description was horribly inaccurate.
    Ya I know. You got caught up in their marketing machine like so many others.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    as well as the program I directed entitled "the magnificent seven", starring seven very talented martial artists…
    Ya I saw that title, it has Gene Lebell one of my favorite Judoka.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I am truly regretful that those intentions have been tainted by lurid advertizing.
    So am I. You seem like a good guy. Just remember when you lay down with dogs you might get flees.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    I hope that my candid responses have conveyed my intentions. I appreciate Olorin's straight forward questions and hope I have been as direct in kind.
    You have, I just wish you would take another half step and state the TRS lied, it is pretty obvious at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    The best of luck with your website.
    Best of luck with your film work.

    PS Don’t let TRS Direct or Bob Pierce tarnish your reputation, it’s just not worth it.
    .
    Last edited by Olorin; 3/04/2008 10:52pm at .
  7. 1bad65 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2008 2:15am


     Style: boxing, gjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm a bit confused.

    On one hand you say this:

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    Over a decade ago (when these programs were done...on VHS) I did not think much about how TRS was selling their products and assumed they knew more about marketing their products than I did. I did not agree with them but was not confident enough put my foot down to stop it.
    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    Unfortunately, as I have said, I did not assert myself due to my lack of experience in the video market at the time. I would like to think that in the last decade I have become a little more astute in how I am represented.
    But on the other you say this:

    Quote Originally Posted by outpost
    The last video I worked on for TRS was two years ago,....
  8. Katje is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2008 5:29am


     Style: Escrima n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Think he means the videos being discussed in this thread were done 10 years ago but the last ones he did were 2 years ago, though I have been known to be wrong.
  9. 1bad65 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/05/2008 8:46am


     Style: boxing, gjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are right Katje. But my point was that if he felt he was so wronged by TRS in the past, why would he work with them again?
  10. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/05/2008 10:56am


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1bad65
    You are right Katje. But my point was that if he felt he was so wronged by TRS in the past, why would he work with them again?

    Well TRS may have come to him saying they screwed up and want to make it up to him y doing it right this time.

    Remember he said the last tape he did was a couple of years ago and he has not even seen it being offered yet.
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