What a quack, he needs to go the way of Scientology.
So you mean to tell me that Ray, has to use 5 fingers, Like everybody else when he employs his 5 finger of Death technic. Man one of his DVDs said he could teach you the 5 finger of death using only 3 finger.
I'm never buying another DVD.
Good old Olorin, the article writing pitbull of Bullshido; he bites a leg, holds onto that leg, keeps biting till the victim dies, and grinds the bones to dust for good measure.
But now I need someone new...nothing but work work work...
Originally Posted by Stick
Ok, I received an email from Robert Pierce CEO of TRS Direct:
I've been asked to comment on numerous "investigations" previously.
I don't have much to comment on here Jonathan other than to say that I'm comfortable with our representation of Ray's background as it was told to us.
The efforts of such sites to smear or attempt to discredit are interesting at best.
At TRS, despite some individuals opinion of our advertising efforts, all our products have been 100% guaranteed. If our material doesn't deliver they can return it for a full refund. You never know if you're selling to a Grand Master Black Belt or a newbie... thus the reason for the guarantee. What may be revolutionary new information to one would not be to the other of course.
I'd be curious to know, I honestly do not, if Bushido or sites like it ever compare or contrast various production companies willingness to stand behind their products with a similar guarantee.
Paul Vunak wasn't contracted by the US Navy. However, individuals from SEAL Team #2 and #6 hired Paul on their own to train them and their teams. So is he a "SEAL Team Trainer"?
If you polled the US Navy's official records you would not find Paul's name anywhere. Yet, he did train them. This I know for fact.
The net and it's forums offer everyone a voice. Just like paper can not refuse ink, so be it in the digital world.
I will address your primary question. As far as I know, Bullshido does not compare various dealers of Martial Arts DVDs in regards to their refund policy. It is commendable that you will offer a full refund if someone is unsatisfied. But here is the problem, if someone buys a DVD from your company, and believes the advertising, they could be seriously hurt. I understand that flamboyant claims help catch a buyers eye but as a seller of Martial Arts instructional videos it is your responsibility to not cross the line from creative advertising to outright falsehood.
You seem like a reasonable guy, you have to know that much of what is written on your website is nonsense designed to fool the ignorant. I spent over three months looking into the claims of Ray Ellingsen and from the Federal Marshals to the California Bail Agents Association no one had ever heard of him. You brought up Paul Vunak as an example that someones claims can be true even if they are impossible/hard to verify, but your website states that Ray Ellingsen is "well known and well respected." Therefore an organization like the California Bail Agents Association should have heard of him.
I would ask one thing, and I am not trying to be insulting, why not sell martial arts/self defense videos from people who are exactly who they say they are and have the experiences they claim? Why not work with good martial artists and make reasonable claims about how the video can improve someone’s ability to defend them self. If you do that you will not have to worry that some night some stupid kid might get seriously hurt because they believed they could defend themselves when they should have just walked away.
Last edited by Olorin; 2/11/2008 11:13pm at .
Paul Vunak can also produce written letters from various Naval Officers thanking him for providing training. We would of course reproduce a letter from The U.S. Marshal Service, thanking Ray for helping them capture various fugitives. No such proof is offered by Mr. Pierce. Draw your own conclusions.
"The efforts of such sites to smear or attempt to discredit are interesting at best."
Hey, Bob, if you want to argue its a smear, please provide a list of mistakes we made in our articles about Ray Ellingsen, Dan Webre, and Richard Painter. Please be willing to back up such contentions with evidence. Until then I don't think you have the grounds to call it these articles "a smear".
I received a reply from TRS direct...
Thanks for your communication.
I believe wholeheartedly that we are selling information that is both useful and from people who are who they claim to be.
In your reply you stated both in the first and third paragraph that "if... (they use material) they could get seriously hurt".
Understand, we are not promoting violence to see if people can "win" whatever their definition of winning is. All of our materials, both written and digital states clearly to "when possible, avoid any physical confrontation".
Bottom line is that people need to be aware and fight back when necessary. Research clearly shows that perpetrators or predators prefer easy prey. The less aware, the less willing or able to resist the easier for them to assert their will.
Any effort -- trained or untrained -- to resist and fight back is better than becoming a victim.
Training comes in many different styles. Opinions are wide and varied and filled with both emotional and ego driven opinions. Analogy, which is better Chinese, Italian or Mexican food? (Kenpo, TKD, JKD, Krav Maga???)
If our products do not deliver quality information to expand the buyers knowledge & abilities they are able to act on the gaurantee.
The tranformation or elevation of ones skills after purchasing the material is also a direct reflection of the committment that the individual makes to understanding and training with the material.
Anyone can buy the "No Money Down, Make Millions in Real Estate" course. But the one who studies and applies most effectively is likely to end up "luckier" than the others.
Again, I'm highly comfortable offering Ray's material and expressing his experience working in and with the respective fields and organizations detailed within the promotional materials.
Thanks for replying,
We could go on like this forever, back and forth about business practices. We have done investigations on three of your instructors, Ray Ellingsen, Dan Webre, and James Painter. Do you have any evidence to refute our conclusions?
Last edited by Olorin; 2/13/2008 12:02am at .
Incidently if he's referring to Robert Allen of "buy property with no money down" Robbie's work has been seriously undermined. See:
Incidently the problem with some of these real estate courses is that they will recommend some techniques that are illegal or expose the buyer to additional problems down the road. For example lying about the existence of secondary mortgages or whether one is going to occupy the property as one's exclusive residence.
For a review of another "No Money Down" Guru see:
Ok...and one more...
I haven't read the other two. In the coming days I'll take a look at Painter's as I believe James is a high quality guy with great skills. Without getting too far out on a limb suffice it to say that I won't spend much time looking over Dan Webre's review.
I'll conclude by stating that our efforts are not about "fooling the ignorant" but rather increasing the awareness to people that their safety is their responsibility and not something to be left in the care of the local PD or otherwise.
If they do nothing more than watch the material and become more aware of their surroundings and their options for either escape or defense than I feel our product and the efforts to promote are more than worthwhile.
I have many, many letters and e-mails from people whos lives came to a fork in the road facing violence in various forms (muggings, assault, rape, bullying etc.) and as a result of the investment that they made in our material they are on a much more positive path today.
I've enjoyed this dialogue and appreciate your contacting me.
So it seems that he is content to dig in his heals. We are still waiting on any information that contradicts the conclusions of this investigation or the investigations of Dan Weber or the false advertising of James Painter.
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