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  1. jeff5 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2008 12:40pm


     Style: KunTao & Kettlebells

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    At the very least I give them credit for trying to make their art work under duress. That's more than can be said for most Aikidoka. I kept screaming at that first video for the other guy to keep his damn hands up though. Against even a semi skilled boxer or striker that would have been over quickly. Still, props to them for the effort.
  2. RaiNnyX4 is online now

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2008 1:06pm


     Style: Aikido/Judo/BJJ/Naginata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Simio de las Rocas
    Is anyone, either experienced in aikido or not as the case may be, going to point out the sole and very OBVIOUS problem with what these guys are attempting to acheive ?

    Think about what aikido's primary or fundamental principle of application is and what's not happening.. more importantly why its not happening... C'mon guys this ain't rocket science.

    --Dave

    PS I'll give you a clue..
    Here's the kanji for it LOL 崩し
    I'm only in "Intermediate Japanese 1" in my collegiate studies so the Kanji evades me. However, upon looking it up in my Kanji dictionary I see that it is "Kuzushi". True, that is required for all throws but I would have said "Irimi" as to what the guys were missing. It's funny that Shodokan guys would be attempting to apply Aikido defensively instead of using active Irimi. Until both guys are allowed to strike it simply isn't very "Aiki" to me but is a good experiment and they get accolades from me for actually putting themselves on the line. Whereas most Aikidoka are content with criticizing from afar.
  3. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2008 1:33pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RaiNnyX4
    I'm only in "Intermediate Japanese 1" in my collegiate studies so the Kanji evades me. However, upon looking it up in my Kanji dictionary I see that it is "Kuzushi". True, that is required for all throws but I would have said "Irimi" as to what the guys were missing. It's funny that Shodokan guys would be attempting to apply Aikido defensively instead of using active Irimi. Until both guys are allowed to strike it simply isn't very "Aiki" to me but is a good experiment and they get accolades from me for actually putting themselves on the line. Whereas most Aikidoka are content with criticizing from afar.
    Well you're not wrong, irimi is an important aspect of aikido however it isn't a foundation principle.

    Kuzushi however is what the art is essentially based on; either the kuzushi is created by the attacker's momentum or, as it the case of the aikiboxing, when that momentum isn't easy to exploit, the aikidoka has to create it for themselves thus my question still stands.

    So, we've established that kuzushi isn't being effectively used (which is why the waza is failing) so, what is the aikidoka not doing to create kuzushi thus an opportunity to apply a technique ?

    The answer is in front of you if you watch the clips especially the first one, ask yourself what is the "attacker doing" that the aikidoka isn't.
  4. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2008 1:44pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jeff5
    At the very least I give them credit for trying to make their art work under duress. That's more than can be said for most Aikidoka. I kept screaming at that first video for the other guy to keep his damn hands up though. Against even a semi skilled boxer or striker that would have been over quickly. Still, props to them for the effort.
    And I'll agree with you, I give them props for cracking on with their efforts however, no matter how much of this they do, it won't improve their understanding of the things they wish to improve until something else (the subject of my other post) starts happening first.

    There's a sequence of events which need to happen in order for an aikido technique to work:

    1. Awase - You blend/redirect their attack - leading to an opportunity to...
    2. ?????? - Having done this, it creates an opening to exploit the...
    3. Kuzushi - Once you have your attacker off balance you can...
    3. Waza - apply the technique through the direction of movement appropriate to the situation.

    More often than not 1&2 occur almost simultaneously
  5. kiaiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2008 1:52pm


     Style: Aikido Ceteris Paribus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As someone tired of the old arguments, I would only say that it makes sense to train against what you wish to defend against. Sport Aikido vs. Sport MMA or Karate is fun, no more.

    If an Aikidoka meets an unarmed guy who launches an assault, he can crack his skull open with a long stick, stick a knife in him, punch or kick him, throw him, strangle or choke him - or even apply a dreaded armbar.

    Nothing is 'banned' and all are legitimately taught as part of Aikido attacks. The point is, kuzushi or otherwise, defence does not rely on the responses we are taught in meeting an attack. We also learn attacks which can be also used freely for self defence.

    So, pretty vids, but proving what? Under what rules? If the Aikido defender can smack a guy in the throat, liver, etc., why leave out the atemi strikes which are critical in overcoming resistance?

    Don't know why I posted,but at least it woke me up. Off to sleep for another month or two ;)
    Last edited by kiaiki; 2/03/2008 2:02pm at .
  6. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2008 2:03pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for ruining my quiz Dave, you old fart.
  7. kiaiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2008 2:14pm


     Style: Aikido Ceteris Paribus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Simio de las Rocas
    Thanks for ruining my quiz Dave, you old fart.
    ****, sorry. INCOMING!!! Damn, shot my own balls. Never mind - now Ross Kemp is in Afghanistan we're all safe - no self respecting sniper would target anyone else with him around. :new_2guns
  8. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2008 2:15pm

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've never studied Aikido, just read about it. Do you old Aikido guys think that training Aikido like this turns it into something else which I think Aikido people would normally refer to as competitive Aikijutsu?
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  9. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2008 2:27pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    I've never studied Aikido, just read about it. Do you old Aikido guys think that training Aikido like this turns it into something else which I think Aikido people would normally refer to as competitive Aikijutsu?
    Its an interesting question but I think you'll find that most attitudes will largely depend upon their own deluded opinions of their skills.

    My opinions are based upon working for 7.5 years in a prison environment and finding out very quickly that you can't rely upon your would-be assailant to give you any form of momentum (unless they were totally dumb as a fucking stump), which is why you have to hit and or kick your attacker effectively first even before thinking (by and large) of applying and aikido technique.

    As I've said this many times here, the vast majority of aikido is taught purely for the dojo environment and people can and do often go through their entirely lives not being assaulted or involved in physical confrontation thus, have no comprehension of how effective/ineffective their actual abilities are.

    Personally I don't see cross training or learning a specific skills set as bastardising one's aikido however, from a classical point of view, you might never be graded in those skills because they'll most likely fall outside of the normal technical set known as "aikido".

    --Dave
  10. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2008 2:28pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kiaiki
    ****, sorry. INCOMING!!! Damn, shot my own balls. Never mind - now Ross Kemp is in Afghanistan we're all safe - no self respecting sniper would target anyone else with him around. :new_2guns
    Actually he's back in the UK, my brother in law is a Captin with the Vikings and he's presently based in Germany.
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