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  1. mike321 is online now

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2008 11:58am


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They've claimed to have defended themselves using: Aikido, Ninjutsu, Tai Chi, Hun Gar (spelling?) and say believe that every martial art is equal.



    TMAs can improve an untrained fighter. If an art has some aliveness or some solid technique then improvement is possible. The problem is they are extending personal experience to make a rule in their minds that all styles/arts/methods are equal. You are attempting to use logic and reason. This usually fails. They probably have strong emotional attachments to their outlook on life. It may help to understand these emotional attachments and blend your reasoning with the emotional knowledge to convince them. But often, reason fails as a method of persuasion.

    It just sucks.
  2. Jadonblade is offline
    Jadonblade's Avatar

    Hoo Ha!

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2008 12:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: San Da, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I found the simplist way is the double leg takedown. For a few reasons, it shows BS and it shows their takedown defense BS. I guarantee they will say elbow to spine or knee in face. Then you can say why thats only going to work 2% of the time (probaly never for the elbow) and that sprawling would be better. Try it again, they sprawl and enlightenment will wash over them as they realise how much easier that was.
  3. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2008 12:05pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenedaqua
    alright, so here's a question that's been on my mind. how does one convince someone about the bullshit of many martial arts? I don't know if this is in the right forum or not, so please forgive me.

    I know a bunch of pals who I argue day in and day out about how many martial arts (mostly tma) don't work versus MMA.

    I've given them bullshido links, and that guy who talks about aliveness (I forgot his name. Matt?)

    and they come back saying "Those articles are all opnion". They say that MMA has rules to keep the fighters safe and alive, while people in the street are subjected to "eye gouging, nut grabbing" etc etc.

    So my question is, how do I convince them? They mostly say that realists in martial arts (mostly in bullshido) are nothing but opinions. They've claimed to have defended themselves using: Aikido, Ninjutsu, Tai Chi, Hun Gar (spelling?) and say believe that every martial art is equal. They claim a master of Ninjutsu can take down any MMA champion. They claim that it's the person not the art.

    Everything I've thrown at them, from Jet Li saying he can't beat up MMArtists (they believe he said that to not slander MMA)

    To articles (they believe they're only opinions)

    to videos (they say that their are only videos of MMA winning but not traditional arts winning, why they don't know)

    to asking them to go to throwdowns (in which they say martial arts is not for fighting, but for defense.)

    I really want to try and help these guys out, but it seems they have an excuse for everything. Is there a way? Or do I just have to wait until they finally get attacked by someone who does do mma?

    :5question
    What art do you do?
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  4. anza is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2008 12:06pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your best bet: find a better crowd to hang out with, and go have fun. Why do you want to change someone anyway? It just comes off like bible thumping, you know .. "the errors of your ways" and all.

    I enrolled my son in krotty knowing full well how useless it is, but he's there to learn some discipline in environment where his age group peers are in. That is worthwhile in and of itself, until he's older and I can enroll him in youth BJJ.
  5. anza is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2008 12:08pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jadonblade
    I guarantee they will say elbow to spine or knee in face. Then you can say why thats only going to work 2% of the time (probaly never for the elbow)
    I'm curious why you think that is? No really, I'm serious. I don't know any BJJ but it doesn't seem impossible to catch an oncoming attacker with a good knee in the face ... elbow to the back, side of the head, etc.

    I guess I have to have that demonstrated to me at upcoming throwdown for my enlightenment ... (yes, I do intend to take up BJJ real soon now).
  6. Jadonblade is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/01/2008 12:16pm

    supporting member
     Style: San Da, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by anza
    I'm curious why you think that is? No really, I'm serious. I don't know any BJJ but it doesn't seem impossible to catch an oncoming attacker with a good knee in the face ... elbow to the back, side of the head, etc.

    I guess I have to have that demonstrated to me at upcoming throwdown for my enlightenment ... (yes, I do intend to take up BJJ real soon now).
    Is that the oxford throwdown your coming to?. In regards to the elbow to spine. Your back is very muscled and your spine is pretty well protected. Even if you got in a good strike it would not stop the takedown. Plus unless your timing is amazing you have sacrificed the chance to take a good stance against the takedown, i.e sprawl. I didnt learn sprawling in BJJ I learnt it most effectively in san da.

    Knee to face you have a slightly better chance because if it does connect well it could stop the takedown (where as the elbow wouldnt). But your timing is gonna have to be amazing, which requires very good reflexes. Someone with a good double leg will very very fast and sudden. His head will be away from the knee as well. You would only succeed in hitting him with your thigh. However if its a bad shoot and you can get your hands/fore arms in front of his shooting body then knee away. Trying the knee also will take you even more off balance. Turning a good double leg into a devestating one.
  7. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2008 12:19pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by anza
    I'm curious why you think that is? No really, I'm serious. I don't know any BJJ but it doesn't seem impossible to catch an oncoming attacker with a good knee in the face ... elbow to the back, side of the head, etc.

    I guess I have to have that demonstrated to me at upcoming throwdown for my enlightenment ... (yes, I do intend to take up BJJ real soon now).
    A leg takedown is a 3 dimensional attack against a person's legs. The attacker can rotate (1 dimension), change height (2 dimension), and move forward (3 dimension) in one fluid motion. The target is the legs. A knee to the face relies on connecting the knee to the face. Simple enough in theory but we are talking about hitting a moving target. It also places the leg (otherwise known as the target) closer to the attacker. If face contact is made, the attacker will be damaged to some unknown degree, and may or may not be driven back. This depends on who has more momentum. If the knee misses the face, the defender only has one leg down. This completes 50% of the attackers follow up move. This usually goes in favor of the attacker.
  8. anza is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2008 12:21pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My first reaction would be knee or low kick, but assuming once we're on the ground, doesn't the attacker get to be on top with his head in my chest area? If so, wouldn't that still allow elbows to the side of the face, unless the attacker applies other painful joint locks?
  9. Tommy is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2008 12:36pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ, San Shou

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's like arguing religion sometimes. You won't convince your friends of anything they aren't willing to believe. It breaks a cool fantasy and pisses all over whatever time they may have spent with it.

    Even if you do some sparring with them, they can just rationalize loss with "yeah, well, it's the person, not the style," and "the only reason I didn't rip out your eyes/balls is 'cause we're buds."

    If they're stupid, it stays at that. If they're a little smarter, they'll start to investigate their training methods. Eventually, they might figure it out for themselves.
  10. pittfrog is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2008 12:37pm


     Style: Judo/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Really ask yourself why you're attempting to convince these people at all, if you've made a reasonable effort, and they insist on continuing to LARP. While katas and TMA LARPing isn't for most of us here, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with those activities as hobbies. Essentially, you're telling your ninjer friends "hey man, I know you love it, but your hobby sucks." If you can't convince them in a short and friendly conversation, your repeated runs at this cross the line into plain old rudeness. Give it up and just train.
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