Santiago Shatan - Russian Jiu Jitsu, MFS/Carlson Gracie Certs?

[TalkShowOnMute]

Allow me to make this short and sweet.

This guy claims to be a Gracie Brown belt and a MFS Purple Belt (4 stripes).

And this is his website
http://mongoosegear.com/training/?p=23

His certifications have already been viewed by my instructor and are now being forwarded to Gracie affiliates for further debunking. However, everyone to have viewed them have agreed that these documents are bogus. Take a look yourself.

(see obviously phony certifications below)


And the Gracie totally-different-not-at-all-the-same-certificate


The man himself.


"Master Instructor Santiago Shatan.

*In 1983, the former soviet union’s “OSNAZ” group, the elite special military forces reporting directly to the KGB, commissioned 3 world class wrestlers to develop a hybrid system of martial arts, with particular focus on hand to hand assassination. This group was headed by Alimbeg Bestaev, with assistance from Aslan Khadarstev and Dzakhsorov Tauzbek.

*Mr. Shatan is the only direct descendant of this training program that currently resides in the U.S.

*this martial arts system is especially effective for persons with wrestling backgrounds. This system contains innovative techniques which inject some fresh alternatives into Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) applications.

*This system is at the heart of the storyline of a new movie in production by Hollywood Producer and Actor Don Johnson. (”Miami Vice”).

Curriculum: (now doing seminars and teaching at the Mejiro Gym L.A.)

1. Skull & spine compression.

2. Alternatives to traditional positional theory

3. Submission from difficult positions"

[sochin101]

Perhaps he could just have put graphical representations of his certificates on the web-site, maybe... to stop people using them as templates for forgery?

[The Badger]

Thread about this here: http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=L...41&FID=1&pc=27

[TalkShowOnMute]

Sochin, yes. We could give him the benefit of the doubt. However using official signatures in a representative document (of a genuine document) is shady at the least. Also, it could be forgery. However, beyond that most instructors have no problems with showing thier true certifications. My previous instructor is a great example.

http://www.leonardoxavier.com/about/index.html
http://www.leonardoxavier.com/about/certificate.jpg

[truoutlawz]

With respect to these accusations, you can verify the legitimacy of these certificates as follows:

1. Gracie Certificate issued by certified Carlson Gracie Sr. Level 4 Instructor, Dave Kujawski. See websites:

http://home.comcast.net/~graciejiuji...ome.html-.html.

http://rabiddogmma.com/id44.html


2. Miletich Certificate Issued by Certified MFS Level 3 Instructor, Dave Kujawski. See websites:

http://www.mfs-elite.com/Certified_Instructors.htm

http://rabiddogmma.com/id37.html

You can contact Dave Kujawski for verification at: davek@whitecm.com.

For more info., see

http://www.whitecm.com/index.php?sub...ement%20Team#7

[Kokujin]

Jeez...I love it when they come up with soviets in a lab developing hand to hand systems to destroy the american imperialists! Lab coats and judo mats!

[DdlR]

I have no clue as to whether Santiago Shatan is claiming bogus ranks, but note that "lab coats and judo mats" is an accurate summation of the development of Russian martial arts throughout much of the Twentieth Century. The Soviets really did have scientists (biomechancal specialists, psychologists and others) heavily involved in analyzing and developing hand to hand combat systems. The various forms of SAMBO and Systema are the best-known examples.

[sambosteve]

Regarding the soviet stuff. That story comes from the typical playbook as posted above. However, the problem is that much stuff from the old "soviet lab" days is tough to verify. I have never heard of what he describes...not that it does not exist. However, The fact that the old russian stuff has always been hard to verify has made it a magnet for frauds.

Also, in regard to the MFS site posted above, I believe that is old and out of date.
Here is the most recent site, which does not list this guy as an affiliate:
http://www.mfselite.com/

Kujawski had a serious falling out with pat and is no longer affiaited with him. He was smearing Pat all over the place...and still trying to use the MFS name apparently. Pat posted on this thread (as did kujawski via kempofist) and noted that there was a lawsuit with kujawski and could not comment till it was over. Here is a thread about that:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...light=kujawski

however, it looks like the date on the posted cert was from before the falling out bewteen Pat and Kujawski...

It is strange that the 2 certs look like they are from the same template though.

[PCH]

"1. Gracie Certificate issued by certified Carlson Gracie Sr. Level 4 Instructor, Dave Kujawski."


LOL!

I can assure you: there is no such thing as a "level 4 instructor " under Carlson Gracie Sr (nor under Junior).


These fake certificates are SOOO bad, I'm not sure they even warrant investigation.

[Kokujin]

I have no clue as to whether Santiago Shatan is claiming bogus ranks, but note that "lab coats and judo mats" is an accurate summation of the development of Russian martial arts throughout much of the Twentieth Century. The Soviets really did have scientists (biomechancal specialists, psychologists and others) heavily involved in analyzing and developing hand to hand combat systems. The various forms of SAMBO and Systema are the best-known examples.

Oh, I believe in soviet's "lab coats and mats" aproach to the russian martial arts. We're talking about the same guys that were trying to develop mind control techniques and such, so that doesn't yank my chain in no way. But being that they lived half a century behind a iron curtain, people, and russian people specially, can say whatever they want and no one outside Russia or even in Russia can confirm or deny! For instance, I can say my dad was trained by russian special forces in guerrila warfare...truth or false?:grommit: