Oldtime Strongman

**Fighting Cephalopod** · Posted On: 1/30/2008 5:18pm

Originally Posted by Arthyron

I was trying to make peace of it, agree to disagree, so that this thread could continue for its primary purpose, but if you want it to be that way, then so be it.

Translation: that is exactly what I was trying to do, and now that I've been called on it I'm going to continue arguing instead, because I cannot bear to appear let someone disagreeing with me appear to be right

Simple, it's a partial bench press, not a full bench press. Both a shirted and unshirted benchpress are full bench presses. It is still the same movement, but it is only part of the movement. I do it for a very specific purpose. The purpose is not so I can do the most weight possible on the benchpress, it's to develop power for bending things with the arms partially extended (which is how most bends are done).

On matters of technicality, nothing else is changing about the lift except the fact that I'm forgoing part of the movement. The part of the movement that I AM doing, I am doing on my own without any aid (i.e. shirt, straps, gloves, etc). One could also do a parital benchpress with a shirt as well. The primary purpose of the shirt, of course, is to help at the bottom part of hte movement, but it will still aid you in partial movements as well. Even though part of the movement isn't done, it's still using the same weight apparatus in the same way. Hence, it is still a benchpress and though one COULD use things to aid them in it, I do it without these aids, and I do it not for the sake of increasing the amount of weight I can do, but for entirely unrelated purposes. Thus, it is consistent with the argument that I've been presenting.

So using an apparatus to help you with a lift is bad if it's a shirt or straps but good if it's a rack or barbell, got it, that's totally consistent and not at all dumb or arbitrary

You just agreed with me...???

No, I noted that all the reasons you listed for using a barbell over a sandbag are equally valid reasons to use a shirt.

Appeal to authority fallacy. Him simply saying it is doesn't change anything. He presents no other argument or evidence for this claim (at least none that we haven't already gone over here).

Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if authority is being used to contradict a logical argument. You are not offering a logical argument, you are making an assertion ("benching shirted is no different than unshirted in terms of technique") which I am contrasting with the assertion of someone who is much more knowledgeable about shirted benching than you are. Your sole response was "Well, he might be lying" which is, frankly, silly.

**Arthyron** · Posted On: 3/03/2008 2:16am

Originally Posted by fatherdog

Translation: that is exactly what I was trying to do, and now that I've been called on it I'm going to continue arguing instead, because I cannot bear to appear let someone disagreeing with me appear to be right

You continue to attempt to put words in my mouth and attribute my actions to dubious motives, and you do so mistakenly.

So using an apparatus to help you with a lift is bad if it's a shirt or straps but good if it's a rack or barbell, got it, that's totally consistent and not at all dumb or arbitrary

Good, glad you understand now. Rack or barbell = weight apparatus. Shirt or straps = athletic crutch. It's like meta-lifting.

No, I noted that all the reasons you listed for using a barbell over a sandbag are equally valid reasons to use a shirt.

I saw no "valid reasons" amongst those you listed, only an attempt to equate two things that are not the same.

Appeal to authority is only a fallacy if authority is being used to contradict a logical argument. You are not offering a logical argument, you are making an assertion ("benching shirted is no different than unshirted in terms of technique") which I am contrasting with the assertion of someone who is much more knowledgeable about shirted benching than you are. Your sole response was "Well, he might be lying" which is, frankly, silly.

I didn't say "he might be lying," I'm saying "he might be wrong" or "he might not know what he's talking about." Citing a proponent of one particular side as evidence is open to confirmation bias and beggng the question (obviously not necessarily the case, but it renders it more likely than otherwise).

Regardless, my argument is a logical argument. You may disagree or have a counter argument, but it doesn't change the fact that my argument is a logical one, and thus it is most certainly an appeal to authority fallacy. Simply because he advocates the thing you are championing, it does not render your argument any more valid.