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  1. Arthyron is offline
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    Lionheart

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2008 7:43pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wasn't talking about a standard shirt, but some robotic exo-suit or whatever (like they're working on in Japan and in the Military, that enable you to support and carry much heavier loads). The point I was making is where does it stop? Once you let the gimmicks in, where does it stop being merely a gimmick or a tool and start being more about the gimmick itself than the physical training?

    The reverse, because shirted guys brag about their accomplishments when shirted as if they're legitimate achievements. For instance, one of my friends is a powerlifter, and he was talking about how he put up 500, and I said "shirted or unshirted?" and he said "...shirted, but I still did the lifting!" He didn't actually benchpress 500 lbs, he benchpressed however many pounds and the shirt negated the effects of the other amount of weight for him. All it does is take the Iron Game and make it the Meta-Iron Game. People are gonna start coming out with better and better and more efficient shirts and suits, and then there's just gonna be that "race" people will have to deal with, as if supplements, steroids, training methods, recovery, and time put in to it weren't enough.

    The criticism is because it's just another needless complication, all for the sake of getting people to do things faster, easier, and better. It misses the point, in my opinion.


    I would disagree about the old time dudes. They could have built braces and things which augmented their abilities easily, the technology was there. They didn't though, because the draw was the natural building and augmentation of the natural physique beyond that of the average person.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2008 7:47pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dude, seriously, slippery slope argument.

    Have you ever actually worn a bench shirt before you started criticizing it?

    Why are you so concerned with what people say they lift? You don't compete in their federations, and they don't compete in yours, so who cares? Your buddy did bench 500. According to the rules of his fed, it was legit. Is your buddy strong? Yes, he is. Who cares if he used a shirt or not, he still had to be strong to do the lift.

    This is why this separationist crap is such bullshit. You still have to be strong to bench 1000lbs in a whatever ply bench shirt. Know why? Because the guy who held the record for the world's strongest shirted bench, also held the record for the strongest raw bench (Scott Mendleson).

    There's no need to divide the iron game any more than has already been done by society.
    Last edited by Emevas; 1/15/2008 8:25pm at .
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  3. Arthyron is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2008 10:08pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It wasn't a slippery slope argument, it's an honest (albeit rhetorical) question. You can already see it beginning with endorsements of particular lifting shirts vs. others, shirts becoming better and better. Like I said, it's like Meta-weightlifting. It's getting less and less about man vs. metal, and more and more about how we can use technology to cheat our way past our weaknesses instead of hammering them out with blood, sweat, and tears. It's no different than the 'roider scandals in baseball.

    Of course the guy with the best raw benchpress is likely to have the highest shirted benchpress. My point is, why lift shirted? What's the point. "Hey guys, if I put on this suit, I can lift even more." Well duh, but why put on the shirt in the first place. Like I said, I'm sure we could build some pistons and hydraulics and affix those to my torso and make me press 4000 lbs. What's the point? I'm only actually supporting and handling a fraction of the weight. I'm aware that sometimes using a shirt during training will improve your raw bench. Fine, I think it's lame and silly, like using gloves and straps, but whatever. I just see no reason for shirted competitions.

    But anyway, arguing about raw/shirted isn't the point of this thread. I didn't come here to espouse "separationist" notions, but to expose people to an older, different way of training that most people probably haven't heard about and to see if anyone else here practiced it. If you don't like its "bravado," there are dozens of other threads about conventional training and you're welcome to participate in.
    Last edited by Arthyron; 1/15/2008 10:10pm at .
  4. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/15/2008 11:04pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, it's not "the guy with the highest raw has the highest shirted", it's the other way around. You can't just slap a lifting shirt on and get 300lbs on your bench, it takes years of practice and fine tunning.

    It's why I asked if you ever wore a shirt, and clearly the answer is no. Don't knock it till you try it.


    Believe me, I appreciate you bringing a fresh view to the site, and hope you contribute your experiences, I'm just really fucking tired of the "nuh uh, my federation/sport/style/way of moving big heavy things is better than yours" bullcrap that has permiated the way people think. It just creates unnecessary tension when the focus should be on simply gaining strength, not what underwear people wear when they move heavy crap.


    What in particular do you do for your gripper work? I've have my best success applying Westside Principles and taking a page from DeFranco, using RE and ME work.
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  5. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 12:00am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Geared competitions came about because in order for lifters to make serious money doing what they love, lifting, there has to be someone willing to front prize money. In a geared fed, the gear companies front the prize money because it's good advertisement for their gear. In a raw fed, who's gonna front the money? There's a reason almost all serious raw lifters also do geared competition.

    As for "Oh, the old timers wouldn't have used gear", the old timers used barbells and dumbells rather than just picking up rocks, kegs, and sandbags - barbells and dumbells diminished the importance of grip strength and enabled them to lift more. It's equipment just the same. The fact that gear allows you to lift more doesn't make their numbers "meaningless", because everyone they're competing against has access to the same gear; their numbers are directly comparable.

    I love old time strongmen stuff and have used a lot of that kind of training in my own development, but to dismiss the achievements of geared lifters shows a complete lack of respect for the blood, sweat and effort they've put into their lifting, and causes you to come off as an elitist douche - especially since the people you are sneering at are almost certainly still stronger than you are without their gear on.
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  6. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 5:05pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arthyron
    What I do IS the Iron Game as it was originally known.
    Instead of telling us what you do, why don't you show us? Youtube is a wonderful tool, one which we use extensively to document and positively critique what we do.

    Showing us what you do is a great way to gauge what contributions you can make to the PT forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    I love old time strongmen stuff and have used a lot of that kind of training in my own development, but to dismiss the achievements of geared lifters shows a complete lack of respect for the blood, sweat and effort they've put into their lifting, and causes you to come off as an elitist douche - especially since the people you are sneering at are almost certainly still stronger than you are without their gear on.
    Quoted for truth and this is why I'm requesting the OP to give us a glimpse of what he does. It is not sufficient to show clips of old timers and 3rd party participants who are not here to discuss, approve or dissaprove the point of view the OP is presenting in their name.

    To Arthyron:
    This is some food for tought for you, a quote from Ross Enamait when he was anonymously challenged over the internet to perform a heavy deadlift (a challenge which he met with video evidence):

    Ross Enamait - Look, if you can't do something, you should work harder to catch up, rather than doubting what everyone else says and does. The keyboard warrior bullshit just isn't necessary.

    This is bullshido.net - if you claim you do or can do something, you must provide evidence. This is particularly true for you since you talk about lift shirts and stuff as if they were some sort of magical devise that makes you lift. No, it doesn't. A man that squats 950lbs with a suit and knee wraps may only be able to lift 910lbs. 40lbs difference in what amounts to be almost a half-ton lift.

    You say the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthyron
    Fine, I think it's lame and silly, like using gloves and straps, but whatever
    Well, do you use chalk? Do you lift barefoot? Do you ever use icy-hot on a sore area after training? The very last clip you showed us, that one is showing Steve Justa using a pair of thick leather gloves and high boots. By your own line of faulted logic, he's doing something silly.

    The gear you speak of certainly helps lift more, but by a fraction, while at the same time protecting the ligaments. To think of it as some sort of exoskeleton display an incredible amount of ignorance.

    But that ignorance can be ignored if you actually live by the words you are talking. Show us, enlighten us by showing video of you performing the iron game as it was originally known, you as you claim you do.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 1/16/2008 5:11pm at .
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  7. Arthyron is offline
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    Lionheart

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 5:33pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, it's not "the guy with the highest raw has the highest shirted", it's the other way around. You can't just slap a lifting shirt on and get 300lbs on your bench, it takes years of practice and fine tunning.

    It's why I asked if you ever wore a shirt, and clearly the answer is no. Don't knock it till you try it.


    Believe me, I appreciate you bringing a fresh view to the site, and hope you contribute your experiences, I'm just really fucking tired of the "nuh uh, my federation/sport/style/way of moving big heavy things is better than yours" bullcrap that has permiated the way people think. It just creates unnecessary tension when the focus should be on simply gaining strength, not what underwear people wear when they move heavy crap.
    I'm aware training with a shirt does require getting used to (as it affects your range of motion, angling, posture, and the mechanics of the motion), but the point is, if someone with the highest raw bench in the world trains with a shirt, it's likely that he'll have the highest shirted bench too (at least eventually). That's what I was saying.

    And no where did I say "my style is better than yours" when I started the thread. All I said was "hey, it's an older, unconventional way that has gotten me results that I could never have dreamed of when I trained conventionally." You somehow interpreted that as "bravado," and dropped the sarcasm bomb, which led to this whole firestorm.

    Powerlifting training is great for powerlifters. Shirt training is great for shirted lifters. But that's not what I was talking about. I only gave shirts as an example. But since you hold that view about shirts, what about 'roids and all the other unnatural things people pump into their bodies? With your views on shirts, how does that logic affect your view on "chemical enhancement?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    What in particular do you do for your gripper work? I've have my best success applying Westside Principles and taking a page from DeFranco, using RE and ME work.
    I tend to do sets that are about intensity, really squeezing hard and making sure I hold a few seconds once I close it. A lot of the people who have closed 3's and 4's say that's been the most helpful principle to remember. I also do negatives with either the one I can't close or the one I can just barely close. There are some other things I'll do if I feel I'm having trouble at any particular point n the movement (strap holds, etc).

    I don't focus on the grippers as much, though, simply because I have a lot of other hand-related activities that I do, and I don't want my hands blitzed before I get to them. Try doing a bent press with a hand that's shot from lots of grip work, it doesn't work very well. :( I need my hands at least somewhat fresh for bent press and bending (especially small bending when you really have to be able to clamp down on things).

    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    Geared competitions came about because in order for lifters to make serious money doing what they love, lifting, there has to be someone willing to front prize money. In a geared fed, the gear companies front the prize money because it's good advertisement for their gear. In a raw fed, who's gonna front the money? There's a reason almost all serious raw lifters also do geared competition.
    I'm not saying it isn't lucrative or pragmatic for people who are already using gear, or even that it's not a good thing that people can make money doing what they like. All I was saying is that it's just another needless complication of a field already mired in technological obsession. I don't doubt that shirted lifters work very hard (as I said I know several). I'm asking where does it end, and who's to say what is and isn't "legitimate training?" Do you think it's fine that people are injecting/taking all sorts of chemicals for the sake of doing what they love?

    I can see a serious, seasoned, experienced weightlifter using shirts and suits as a way to augment and improve his abilities, and it's certainly more manly than taking pills and shots in the butt. However it creates yet another "thing" that younger lifters feel they have to do or try to accomplish something. When I used to work at a gym, I'd have these scrawny young guys always coming up to ask me what type of creatine and protein powder and HGH and such they should take, or what kind of straps/gloves I recommend, etc, as if that would solve all their problems and give them instant muscles.

    I see shirts as just another thing that a lot of people feel they have to do to be "competitive" or to accomplish anything substantial. Now like I said, that doesn't necessarily apply to seasoned lifters who know what works and already have the fundamentals down and have a solid idea of what they want to do with their training and what kind of strength they want to obtain. I guess I just don't see it being in the same spirit or mindset as the old Iron Game. It's like "what external chemical/augmentation can I use to give myself an edge or a leg up or fix my flaws?" rather than "how can I improve my training, how can I work harder, what can I do to make MYSELF better? It seems to fall (in my mind, though to a lesser extent than some things) into the idea of "how can I circumvent my natural flaws and limitations" rather than "how can I overcome and surpass my natural flaws and limitations?"

    As for "Oh, the old timers wouldn't have used gear", the old timers used barbells and dumbells rather than just picking up rocks, kegs, and sandbags - barbells and dumbells diminished the importance of grip strength and enabled them to lift more. It's equipment just the same. The fact that gear allows you to lift more doesn't make their numbers "meaningless", because everyone they're competing against has access to the same gear; their numbers are directly comparable.
    Umm...which history book you reading out of? They used rocks, kegs, and sandbags along side dumbbells, because they were good for different things and different kinds of training. The old timers were often renaissance men, incorporating different methods of training to produce a particular result. Many modified their dumbbells, adding thick handles to them to offset the downsides of training with dumbbells. And for instance, the concept of lifting straps was easily achievable and feasible in their time (hell, they could have tied ropes to their wrists and to the bar), but for the most part you don't see them taking those kinds of shortcuts. If they couldn't lift a weight bare-handed, rather than relying on straps, they just got stronger until they could lift it bare-handed. Grip strength was also of the utmost importance (as many of them were feat-performers like me, and grip is ESSENTIAL to those feats), and you'll actually develop more grip strength using a thick-handled dumbbell than you would lifting rocks, for instance. So I'll have to object to your reasoning there.

    And yes, the numbers are comparable, but again, the issue isn't fairness or convention, but rather why people decide "hey, rather than lift normally, I'm going to strap myself into this contraption and do a lot more weight. Hey guys, let's all wear this contraption and test our mettle that way." I mean if you used Martial Arts as an analogy, I suppose you could equate it to fighting unarmed vs. fighting armed with a weapon of some sort that is common to each combatant, but I don't even know if that analogy is a valid one. I can see it as adding another dimension to competition, but I guess I just see it as needless.

    I love old time strongmen stuff and have used a lot of that kind of training in my own development, but to dismiss the achievements of geared lifters shows a complete lack of respect for the blood, sweat and effort they've put into their lifting, and causes you to come off as an elitist douche - especially since the people you are sneering at are almost certainly still stronger than you are without their gear on.
    At no point did I dismiss their achievements nor did I sneer, so I don't know why you're attributing such notions to me. They did achieve something, but it's not the same thing as achieving those things raw, and a lot of the guys I know who lift geared like to think of it as the same thing (i.e. I can bench 500 lbs...well, no you by yourself can't, you need a shirt to do it). Like Emevas was saying, it's very different and takes a lot of specific training with a shirt on to get good at it.

    But like I said, it's all about what you're trying to accomplish. I don't care if those guys can bench or squat me under a table, many of them couldn't do some of the things I can do. For instance, none of my friends who lift with shirts can legitimately tear a phonebook in half (i.e. not using the cheat method of popping it that practically anyone can do) or bend a piece of re-bar in half. It's all about what you're training for and what your goals are, what kind of strength you intend to develop. The issue was brought up because Emevas felt that my style by nature contained some sort of "bravado" and was "divisive." I was just debating that point, as more controversy comes from debates such as unshirted/shirted than "I bend and break things with my hands."
  8. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 5:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you don't consider comments like

    "shirted/strapped/supplemented/bionic man nonsense"

    to be bravado, then I guess you and I have different views on what non-inflamatory comments are.

    As for my thoughts on chemical assistance, I don't really care. People have put much worse things in their bodies for years purely for recreational use. If someone pumps some test or d-bol to be able to lift more, good for them. How does that affect me? Why should I care what other people do? Why not just focus on my own line of training, rather than concerning myself with what everyone else is doing? In short, why not just mind my own business?

    Good luck in your pursuits.


    Edit: Also, I do not feel that your style is full of bravado or divisive. Your style is a method of lifting heavy things. It doesn't have characteristics. I've torn phone books and lifted with thick bars, it didn't make me full of bravado or divisive. I take issue merely with the presentation.
    Last edited by Emevas; 1/16/2008 7:31pm at .
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  9. Arthyron is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 7:53pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quoted for truth and this is why I'm requesting the OP to give us a glimpse of what he does. It is not sufficient to show clips of old timers and 3rd party participants who are not here to discuss, approve or dissaprove the point of view the OP is presenting in their name.
    I don't have a video camera, but I do have a few pictures of some of the things I've done if you'd like to see those. If you're just asking as some sort of "background" check or some nonsense, I'm not interested in a pissing contest. Look at my original post, none of it was inflammatory in my opinion. Emevas quoted one phrase he found in particular as inflammatory, but I wouldn't see it as that, that's the kind of thing my bodybuilder/powerlifter friends and I joke about, but apparently people here (despite thealleged emphasis on humor) are a bit touchy when it comes to their beloved methodologies.

    As for clips of old timers, I don't claim to represent them or their views, and to suggest such a thing is to take what I said out of context simply so you can have something to yell at me about. Those clips I posted were merely for informative purposes, to show what influences me and what I aspire to do.

    Pictures:

    http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/phot...11101_5754.jpg
    http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/phot...07428_4645.jpg
    http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/phot...726057_979.jpg
    http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/phot...75985_9821.jpg
    http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/phot...57010_2896.jpg
    http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/phot...57009_2586.jpg
    http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/phot...86103_8586.jpg
    http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/phot...86105_9154.jpg
    http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/phot...86104_8889.jpg
    http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/phot...86106_9433.jpg
    http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/phot...86107_9713.jpg

    This is bullshido.net - if you claim you do or can do something, you must provide evidence. This is particularly true for you since you talk about lift shirts and stuff as if they were some sort of magical devise that makes you lift. No, it doesn't. A man that squats 950lbs with a suit and knee wraps may only be able to lift 910lbs. 40lbs difference in what amounts to be almost a half-ton lift.
    Again, it's not about having a pissing contest (though apparently it is for some of you). I don't care about that, there are plenty of guys out there who can do the stuff I can do. Look at the context of my original post, it was informing people who hadn't heard of it of my experiences and asking if anyone else had done any of that sort of training.

    And I'm well aware of what a lifting shirt is and what it can do, if you would read what I wrote instead of seeing "I think these things are lame" and making all kinds of assumptions about what I was intending, you might understand that. Various people have various amounts of success with gear, usually dependent on how much time they've put into training with it (and probably something to do with body composition and arrangement). My whole point was that it's not necessary to perform the lift, and is, in my opinion, a needless complication of the sport. You can disagree, fine, I'm sure there are threads where you can post about pro/anti gear, this is the oldetime strongman thread and its purpose is to discuss oldetime strongman. Sheesh.

    Well, do you use chalk? Do you lift barefoot? Do you ever use icy-hot on a sore area after training? The very last clip you showed us, that one is showing Steve Justa using a pair of thick leather gloves and high boots. By your own line of faulted logic, he's doing something silly.

    The gear you speak of certainly helps lift more, but by a fraction, while at the same time protecting the ligaments. To think of it as some sort of exoskeleton display an incredible amount of ignorance.

    But that ignorance can be ignored if you actually live by the words you are talking. Show us, enlighten us by showing video of you performing the iron game as it was originally known, you as you claim you do.
    No, I don't use chalk, and as for the other examples they're fallacious (shoes do not augment one's ability in these types of lifts/exercises as few of them entail direct support of weight by the legs, icy-hot does not aid in the performance of a lift, and no, I don't use icy-hot either). And the issue with Steve Justa is also fallacious, as he's using equipment that wasn't ergonomically designed to be handled with human hands. If someone's lifting something which is likely to cause physical damage, sure, safety is (more or less, depending on the individual) more important than training. One could argue that shirts are also a safety device (as they protect the ligaments, as you said), but I would venture that that's probably not the reason most people use them.
  10. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 7:55pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Again dude, touchiness isn't the issue. I don't lift geared, so it doesn't have any direct impact on me. I just hate all the bullshit.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
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