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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    I love a good beating.


    I do mind. The only thing I see on pages 12-14 is a discussion of terms and who knows who and from when. And then some videos posted by Swallow which don't really help the argument of combat usefulness.

    Glad2bhere, you gave me a list of why someone would want to study arts. That's great. That doesn't tell me anything about how these arts have been applied and where, and to what success. I'm not sure what exactly you are trying to tell me with it, as it doesn't answer my question.
    I think the point that I was wanting to make, Maverick, is that regardless of the intention for the art, there is a line across which people will not willing step to use the arts the way they were intended. For instance, think about your own training.

    Have you ever choked someone out? I'm probably pretty safe in saying that you let-up before you took their life, right? But the intention of the technique was originally lethal force, right?

    Have you ever used pain compliance such as an armbar? I'm probably pretty safe in saying that you didn't break the elbow joint, even though that was the original intention of the technique, right?

    Now the reason I mention these examples is that in a combat situation, the idea is to stop the other guy, and if the other guy is huge or has a hight tolerance for pain the only way to stop them is to break their body so it doesn't work for them. Now if you have two people of approximately equal size, experience, conditioning and so forth then maybe its possible to simply have one person "submit" another. Speaking for myself, if faced with a huge adversary, who is well-conditioned and well-trained I am not going spend my time trying to submit him nor would I care to.

    Now, if I remember you asked if anyone has actually "tested" their material. I don't know if he still does it, but YAMADA Sensei of the Aikido community in NY regualrly "policed" the neighborhood around his school and had quite a reputation for doing it. In like manner, up until a couple of years ago there was a Master Lee here in Chicago who had a very similar reputation. But, I think we are stepping into that hazy area I mentioned in my previous post---in this case the area between Martial Arts and Martial Sport. In my own experience, when the discussion comes around to this particular area, the conclusions are pretty much always the same--- "who defines what and how". Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    I love a good beating.
    Get your butt over here and we'll simultaneously produce some awesome footage for those who want to see sippalki applied.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    I do mind. The only thing I see on pages 12-14 is a discussion of terms and who knows who and from when. And then some videos posted by Swallow which don't really help the argument of combat usefulness.
    We have established that a style discussion is inadequate in this case since there's no consensus about what sippalki really is. Notwithstanding Swallow's opinion, I'm trying to explain that sippalki is not a martial sport such as hapkido or taekwondo. Application of sippalki will result in snuff material since thrusting, chopping and slicing are way more significant than kwonbup.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    That doesn't tell me anything about how these arts have been applied and where, and to what success.
    There was a KBS documentary recently about King Chongro and the application of sippalki that answers all your questions in detail. Would you like me to send you a copy?

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    irrelevant stuff
    You don't understand what submissions are or how they work. Further discussion will not be helpful in answering my question.

  4. #14

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    ".....We have established that a style discussion is inadequate in this case since there's no consensus about what sippalki really is. Notwithstanding Swallow's opinion, I'm trying to explain that sippalki is not a martial sport such as hapkido or taekwondo. Application of sippalki will result in snuff material since thrusting, chopping and slicing are way more significant than kwonbup......"

    Though I know there are a growing number of Hapkido schools who are working to develope the Hapkido arts into sport material, the arts themselves were never intended to be used in this fashion. Probably the single worst contributor to this was the KUKKIWON whose introduction of JUDO to there TKD program turned out what was represented as "masters" in both TKD and HKD. Sheesh!

    The only way one can make a "sport" out of the Hapkido arts is to begin to place restrictions regarding technique, intensity, safety and so forth. Once that happens, as far as I am concerned one is no longer actually dealing with authentic or traditional Hapkido. A very accurate parallel is to consider what happened to Korean KUM-BUP when the Japanese sport of Kendo was introduced. People are still quite ready to equate KUMDO with KUM-BUP but in actual fact they are very different. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoaranggirl
    Get your butt over here and we'll simultaneously produce some awesome footage for those who want to see sippalki applied.

    We have established that a style discussion is inadequate in this case since there's no consensus about what sippalki really is. Notwithstanding Swallow's opinion, I'm trying to explain that sippalki is not a martial sport such as hapkido or taekwondo. Application of sippalki will result in snuff material since thrusting, chopping and slicing are way more significant than kwonbup.

    There was a KBS documentary recently about King Chongro and the application of sippalki that answers all your questions in detail. Would you like me to send you a copy?
    You want me to fly to ButtfuckNowhere, Norway to meet yet another kung fu-er who can't fight? No thanks.

    What was established is there is a bunch of people claiming a bunch of lineage and no one has seen anyone fight with this stuff. But I see where some confusion may lie.

    When I use the word "application", I don't mean bunhae, I mean actual fighting. Where people get bloody lipped and broken nosed. I don't really care to see this King Chongro if it's going to be more "application" demonstrations. I want to see someone get punched in the face using any of the sippalki claimant styles. And there is a reason why I keep using plural terms, it is to accomodate exactly the various styles claiming to be sippalki.

    And please don't drag this into a sport versus street discussion. We've been over those twenty million times and that leads nowhere productive.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    You don't understand what submissions are or how they work. Further discussion will not be helpful in answering my question.

    Sorry to hear that. Thanks anyhow; I think it was a good exchange.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  7. #17

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    "....When I use the word "application", I don't mean bunhae, I mean actual fighting. Where people get bloody lipped and broken nosed. I don't really care to see this King Chongro if it's going to be more "application" demonstrations. I want to see someone get punched in the face using any of the sippalki claimant styles. And there is a reason why I keep using plural terms, it is to accomodate exactly the various styles claiming to be sippalki...."

    I hope this doesn't sound offensive, but I honestly think you may be mixing two things, Maverick. What makes me think this is that you just asked about punching someone in the face--- a singularly sport-like and very Western approach.

    I can't speak for SIP PAL KI since I do not train in it, however, I know that in traditional Hapkido there would not be much interest in punching someone in the nose, accept as maybe a prelude to some other technique. The Asian application would be to hit a person in the throat with the idea of either bruising or breaking the cartilage. Its the same thing when one deals with a forward tackle, which many are taught to either "splay_out" or use a knee. The combat application is to strike downward to the atlas with an elbow and sever the spinal chord at the Foramen Magnum. I know that head butts, "fish-hooks" and a variety of other techniques are not allowed in sports. Are you asking if we have seen any of these techniques used in combat to good effect? Does any of this help? Are you asking if any of us have seen someone use SIP PAL KI or Hapkido in this fashion? Maybe I am not understanding your question. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    "....When I use the word "application", I don't mean bunhae, I mean actual fighting. Where people get bloody lipped and broken nosed. I don't really care to see this King Chongro if it's going to be more "application" demonstrations. I want to see someone get punched in the face using any of the sippalki claimant styles. And there is a reason why I keep using plural terms, it is to accomodate exactly the various styles claiming to be sippalki...."

    I hope this doesn't sound offensive, but I honestly think you may be mixing two things, Maverick. What makes me think this is that you just asked about punching someone in the face--- a singularly sport-like and very Western approach.

    I can't speak for SIP PAL KI since I do not train in it, however, I know that in traditional Hapkido there would not be much interest in punching someone in the nose, accept as maybe a prelude to some other technique. The Asian application would be to hit a person in the throat with the idea of either bruising or breaking the cartilage. Its the same thing when one deals with a forward tackle, which many are taught to either "splay_out" or use a knee. The combat application is to strike downward to the atlas with an elbow and sever the spinal chord at the Foramen Magnum. I know that head butts, "fish-hooks" and a variety of other techniques are not allowed in sports. Are you asking if we have seen any of these techniques used in combat to good effect? Does any of this help? Are you asking if any of us have seen someone use SIP PAL KI or Hapkido in this fashion? Maybe I am not understanding your question. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    I think that's closer to my original question. What I want to know (see?) is whether the techniques taught in the various arts that claim to be sippalki have ever been used to cause harm to another person. Or ok, so these are "deadly" techniques. Do these styles spar at all? Or is this the same stuff we get from the Chinese "too deadly" community?

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    You want me to fly to ButtfuckNowhere, Norway to meet yet another kung fu-er who can't fight? No thanks.
    Brownies and windowshopping are good in Amsterdam! What is Maryland famous for?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    When I use the word "application", I don't mean bunhae, I mean actual fighting. Where people get bloody lipped and broken nosed. I don't really care to see this King Chongro if it's going to be more "application" demonstrations. I want to see someone get punched in the face using any of the sippalki claimant styles. And there is a reason why I keep using plural terms, it is to accomodate exactly the various styles claiming to be sippalki.

    And please don't drag this into a sport versus street discussion. We've been over those twenty million times and that leads nowhere productive.
    What you probably have seen so far are combats on stage, right? A ring, cage or whatever, some arbiters and an audience. Is that what you call actual fighting? I'm talking about wars, not stages, show or theatre. Sippalki has proven to be a effective in many battles although we can't show any footage. Fortunately there are many historical records on the application of sippalki. That's what the KBS documentary is about. Still interested?

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by hwoaranggirl
    Brownies and windowshopping are good in Amsterdam! What is Maryland famous for?
    Crabs.

    Quote Originally Posted by hwoaranggirl
    What you probably have seen so far are combats on stage, right? A ring, cage or whatever, some arbiters and an audience. Is that what you call actual fighting? I'm talking about wars, not stages, show or theatre. Sippalki has proven to be a effective in many battles although we can't show any footage. Fortunately there are many historical records on the application of sippalki. That's what the KBS documentary is about. Still interested?
    So what you're telling me is you're training to be a soldier in an army? A ancient Asian army.

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