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  1. LowwerWay is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2007 11:27am


     Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivington
    Actually, the point is that you said "CMA people like to lay claim that thier syle(s) cover all aspects of fighting: striking, kicking, locking/submission, throwing, etc... But the reality is, if they do, then they do a poor job of covering most of them, which = crap." and only now do you offer up qualifiers and a display of backpedaling to acknowledge that gee, maybe CMA people do practice their arts in ways which do have strikes and grapples, and aren't crap.
    Rivington, admittedly I made a blanket statement which was a poor choice on my part. Regardless, I stand by my assesments.
  2. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/31/2007 11:44am


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay
    The point is how many, or what percent of CMA schools are fight gyms?
    I have no idea, nor do I particularly care. My advice on this board has always been: don't expect to learn how to fight at a school that doesn't have a good FC fight team. This is the one and only reliable filter; not style, not lineage, &c. Saying CMA sucks because non-fighting schools fail to produce fighters is... well, you see where I'm going with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay
    You're in NY right? There's plenty of CMA in NY. How many of the schools there address grappling on a functional level? Really, I'm curious.
    I only know a small subset of the CMA community here, which -- because of my particular background and interests -- is made up of fight schools. There are around a half dozen decent san shou/san da gyms, all of which train throws, and a couple of schools with shuai jiao offered to provide a live-trained, competitive environment to work on standing grappling found in whichever system they practice.

    Also, a couple of schools -- NY Hung Ga and NY San Da come to mind -- have BJJ/submission wrestling classes for those who want to round out their game with some ne-waza.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  3. LowwerWay is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2007 11:59am


     Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    I have no idea, nor do I particularly care...I only know a small subset of the CMA community here, which -- because of my particular background and interests -- is made up of fight schools...Also, a couple of schools -- NY Hung Ga and NY San Da come to mind -- have BJJ/submission wrestling classes for those who want to round out their game with some ne-waza.
    Ok man, this is fine and well: I applaud you for being involved in competative pursuits and as I've mentioned in other places I wish this was the standard for CMA. When you say small subset of the CMA community you hit the head on the nail. It is a very small subset, which is true across the board.
    For example, within a reasonable driving distance from my home there are 8 CMA schools, of which only one regularly competes in full contact competition and would qualify as a fight gym under the most minimal of standards. I also, think its great that schools are finally conceding to utilize groundwork from other arts and styles, but that only reinforces that grappling is not adequately addressed within the majority of CMA's themselves. If it was, they wouldn't need to do that.
  4. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/31/2007 12:38pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay
    When you say small subset of the CMA community you hit the head on the nail.
    I agree that most martial arts schools suck. My point is that it's worth differentiating between "it's hard to find a good fight gym from that background" and "that system is useless garbage."

    As an aside, when someone asks me where to train striking in NYC, I send them to The Wat -- not because Muay Thai is better than san da, but because Phil Nurse is better than the other trainers in town.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay
    conceding to utilize groundwork from other arts and styles, but that only reinforces that grappling is not adequately addressed within the majority of CMA's themselves. If it was, they wouldn't need to do that.
    Greco-Roman wrestling requires input from other systems to be effective in a sub-grappling/MMA context. Will you thus argue that it doesn't adequately address grappling for this reason?

    Give the devil his due. There's no ne-waza, but ample standing grappling, in properly trained CMA. I do not expect a san da fighter to beat a pure judoka in Judo-style randori, but I'll bet you a dollar that a san da fighter will have an easier time taking down someone who's trying to strike him than a pure judoka will -- rule systems dictate techniques and training methods, which create skill sets; CMA competition rules produce a combined striking/throwing skill set.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  5. LowwerWay is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2007 1:38pm


     Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    I agree that most martial arts schools suck. My point is that it's worth differentiating between "it's hard to find a good fight gym from that background" and "that system is useless garbage."

    As an aside, when someone asks me where to train striking in NYC, I send them to The Wat -- not because Muay Thai is better than san da, but because Phil Nurse is better than the other trainers in town.

    That's called honesty.


    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    Greco-Roman wrestling requires input from other systems to be effective in a sub-grappling/MMA context. Will you thus argue that it doesn't adequately address grappling for this reason?

    Give the devil his due. There's no ne-waza, but ample standing grappling, in properly trained CMA. I do not expect a san da fighter to beat a pure judoka in Judo-style randori, but I'll bet you a dollar that a san da fighter will have an easier time taking down someone who's trying to strike him than a pure judoka will -- rule systems dictate techniques and training methods, which create skill sets; CMA competition rules produce a combined striking/throwing skill set.
    No, I won't argue much at all about greco-roman. I've never heard wrestlers discuss how their wrestling addressed all ranges or was anything other than a combat based sport. Let's take a look at what you've said here: Properly trained CMA. Previously you mentioned being exposed to a small sub set of your local CMA community, which if I understand correctly is probably the largest in the US (NYC area?). In addition, you mentioned shuai jiao training, which is extremely rare to find the real thing even among CMA circles. Yes, properly trained CMA can result in a fair balance of stand up striking and throwing. There's little to no groundwork, and outside of that small subset I say good luck finding that proper training.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm very supportive of well rounded training of any kind, and I still hold some CMA in the highest regard. But I'm also a realist, and have had enough experience to know that I'm not at all likely to walk into the local wing chun, tai chi, or preying mantis school and be able to rationalize it as a fight gym or find decent grappling.
  6. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2007 2:20pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay
    Ok I'll qualify it by saying that the CMA schools that like to lay claim that thier syle(s) covering all aspects of fighting: striking, kicking, locking/submission, throwing, etc... And manage to be successful at it are the exception rather than the rule. I started in CMA in 1990, and in MA in 1982, been around more CMA people than I care to remember, and can say with confidence that the majority of them felt they were proficient in more ranges than they actually were. You know that too Omega.
    Of course I know that, I just thought you'd like to better qualify your remarks so that they weren't so generalized.
  7. seriousmantid is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 2:03pm

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     Style: 8 step preying mantis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay
    Ok man, this is fine and well: I applaud you for being involved in competative pursuits and as I've mentioned in other places I wish this was the standard for CMA. When you say small subset of the CMA community you hit the head on the nail. It is a very small subset, which is true across the board.
    For example, within a reasonable driving distance from my home there are 8 CMA schools, of which only one regularly competes in full contact competition and would qualify as a fight gym under the most minimal of standards. I also, think its great that schools are finally conceding to utilize groundwork from other arts and styles, but that only reinforces that grappling is not adequately addressed within the majority of CMA's themselves. If it was, they wouldn't need to do that.
    I never said what I trained in was a fight gym. Just that certain throws could damage joints. I will have to agree with the fact that most CMA schools I have looked into seem to be lacking on the ground. In the system I take the ground work comes last so I'm not sure how it stands. I do know how ever that the classes have helped my grappeling eventhough we don't grapple as of yet. Me on the other hand I have a couple of friends that come over and we work on our ground game and our stand up. I have to admit I am not Bruce Lee but what I have learned has increased my game tremendously in stand up and in ground fighting. My ground fighting might be improving due to the fact that I wresteled as a kid and can think of ways to use the stand up I've learned on the ground. not all of it but a good majority of it. So I'm sure I have a little more insight on the ground game than most of the people starting out in CMA. I say increased my game tremendously because it easy to advance from nothing.
  8. seriousmantid is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/08/2008 6:25pm

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     Style: 8 step preying mantis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Yes. I mean anyone that uses kiddie (not high school) wrestling over 20 years ago to validate the down and ground skill of mantis is ..........you know where I'm going.

    I am not to the ground game in Mantis yet so I cannot tell you haow it is. I just know that I can use some of the hand techniques on the ground and standing. The grabs actually work really well on the ground. Although I don't know much as you so often point out. I wish one day I could grapple as good as you all. Thank you for your enlightenment.
  9. LowwerWay is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/08/2008 10:57pm


     Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    8 Step and Ground Fighting (Hi I'm seriousmantid here we go again)

    Quote Originally Posted by seriousmantid
    I am not to the ground game in Mantis yet so I cannot tell you haow it is. I just know that I can use some of the hand techniques on the ground and standing. The grabs actually work really well on the ground. Although I don't know much as you so often point out. I wish one day I could grapple as good as you all. Thank you for your enlightenment.

    Who's claiming to be a good grappler?
    Doesn't matter. The big secret is, if you want to find out how your mantis stacks up in grappling, then do it. Actually grapple against jiujitsu players, wrestlers, judoka, etc.. If you do well initially, seek out training partners of higher skill. Then decide whether the grabs work well on the ground and in the clinch.
    Don't be one of those who goes to thier one class, plays around only with others in that same class, and then makes judgement on effectiveness based on that experience. Jump out of the fish bowl.

    Wow, did I just describe NJM?
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/09/2008 3:48am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by seriousmantid
    I am not to the ground game in Mantis yet so I cannot tell you haow it is. I just know that I can use some of the hand techniques on the ground and standing. The grabs actually work really well on the ground. Although I don't know much as you so often point out. I wish one day I could grapple as good as you all. Thank you for your enlightenment.
    Guess it is time to start moving your posts again.
    Mantis DOES NOT HAVE A GROUND GAME EQUIVALENT TO GRAPPLING (wrestling, BJJ etc.).

    The grabs work really well on the ground? STFU. I've studied Mantis and you'd make a better argument saying they have similar throws to Judo.

    I'd still argue against the quality but yeah.

    Mantis with a ground game? No. If your art does have ground game, that doesn't involve leg sweeps and traps, it is a recent addition from another art. If you stopped posting as an authority maybe you'd get a break.

    Mantis with a ground game....I can't believe the **** you type.
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