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  1. seriousmantid is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 10:35pm

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     Style: 8 step preying mantis

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus

    Breaking someone's limb with a throw requires getting a standing joint lock on first. If you are able to throw someone and secure a lock on while they are still in the air then you're probably the best grappler in the world.
    I know I'm not very skilled and not all that informed but the fact that you can break a limb with a throw is possible. In some of the throws in the system of Mantis that I take it is very easy to damage a joint while being thrown. The horse stance throw for example with the way you throw your opponent you can seriously damage a knee. A student in my class is having to have orthoscopic surgery on his knee from the very same throw. If done correctly your right foot is trapping their right foot as you twist them around your leg throwing them to the ground. The fact that you have their foot trapped doesn't allow the bottom of the leg to twist with the body resulting knee damage as they go to the floor could possibly break, dislocate, or just cause some cartilage damage. Either way it is caused by the throw.


    Edited due to the fact I I said left foot when it was actually the opponents right foot I was refering to.
    Last edited by seriousmantid; 12/30/2007 1:35pm at . Reason: got my feet backwards.
  2. LowwerWay is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 11:39pm


     Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by seriousmantid
    I know I'm not very skilled and not all that informed but the fact that you can break a limb with a throw is possible. In some of the throws in the system of Mantis that I take it is very easy to damage a joint while being thrown. The horse stance throw for example with the way you throw your opponent you can seriously damage a knee. A student in my class is having to have orthoscopic surgery on his knee from the very same throw. If done correctly your right foot is trapping their left foot as you twist them around your leg throwing them to the ground. The fact that you have their foot trapped doesn't allow the bottom of the leg to twist with the body resulting knee damage as they go to the floor could possibly break, dislocate, or just cause some cartilage damage. Either way it is caused by the throw.
    Mantid, I'm sure the throws you learn in your preying mantis classes are dangerous. Most likely they are dangerous because A) they aren't practiced very often B) your class doesn't spend much if ANY time learning to fall correctly or safely C) because they are not used often or at all in sparring D) the ground/failed throw isn't addressed.
    Really, it just sounds stupid to assume that you can and will break limbs with a throw if you don't actually practice doing just that. And trust me on this one: try it against an experienced grappler, one with experience in throwing. See how well that goes over.

    That being said, I have seen a broken limb resulting from a well exectued throw. It was becaue the person being thrown didn't know how to fall correctly, not because of the technique. :bunny:
    Last edited by LowwerWay; 12/30/2007 9:57am at .
  3. seriousmantid is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2007 1:38pm

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     Style: 8 step preying mantis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay
    Mantid, I'm sure the throws you learn in your preying mantis classes are dangerous. Most likely they are dangerous because A) they aren't practiced very often B) your class doesn't spend much if ANY time learning to fall correctly or safely C) because they are not used often or at all in sparring D) the ground/failed throw isn't addressed.
    Really, it just sounds stupid to assume that you can and will break limbs with a throw if you don't actually practice doing just that. And trust me on this one: try it against an experienced grappler, one with experience in throwing. See how well that goes over.

    That being said, I have seen a broken limb resulting from a well exectued throw. It was becaue the person being thrown didn't know how to fall correctly, not because of the technique. :bunny:
    I have grappeled and still find that the throw is effective, and also can damage the knee.
  4. LowwerWay is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2007 3:54pm


     Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by seriousmantid
    I have grappeled and still find that the throw is effective, and also can damage the knee.
    Ok. How often? What percentage of time in preying mantis is spent working throws, and of that how often does said throw result in knee damage? Does your class work on falling methods, use mats or crash pads? I'm asking because in many years of CMA training, the only time I've ever seen throwing addressed in effectively, and in a safe manner for practicing is in a shuai jiao class.

    CMA people like to lay claim that thier syle(s) cover all aspects of fighting: striking, kicking, locking/submission, throwing, etc... But the reality is, if they do, then they do a poor job of covering most of them, which = crap. My belief is, that if knees are getting damage from your throw, "IF" that is. Then it has more to do with not practicing the throw often enough, or safely enough to actually become proficient, as well as the person being thrown not knowing safe falling methods or being used to it. Really, I'd hate to think of a bunch of people training some throw, getting their knees hurt constantly because its so dangerous. Or worse yet, thinking that thier throw might damage a knee, and therefore being super deadly...
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2007 6:58pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay

    CMA people like to lay claim that thier syle(s) cover all aspects of fighting: striking, kicking, locking/submission, throwing, etc... But the reality is, if they do, then they do a poor job of covering most of them, which = crap. .
    Really? You should better qualify your remark there, heaven forbid somebody should come along and prove you reaaaaally wrong.
  6. LowwerWay is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2007 9:15pm


     Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless
    Really? You should better qualify your remark there, heaven forbid somebody should come along and prove you reaaaaally wrong.
    Ok I'll qualify it by saying that the CMA schools that like to lay claim that thier syle(s) covering all aspects of fighting: striking, kicking, locking/submission, throwing, etc... And manage to be successful at it are the exception rather than the rule. I started in CMA in 1990, and in MA in 1982, been around more CMA people than I care to remember, and can say with confidence that the majority of them felt they were proficient in more ranges than they actually were. You know that too Omega.
  7. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/31/2007 9:41am


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LowwerWay
    I'm asking because in many years of CMA training, the only time I've ever seen throwing addressed in effectively, and in a safe manner for practicing is in a shuai jiao class.
    We worked throws on mats hard & often for san shou/san da. I get the sense from your messages here that you didn't train at any CMA fight gyms...
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  8. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/31/2007 10:10am

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Funny how sparring and competition weed out the crap pretty quickly, huh?
  9. LowwerWay is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2007 11:04am


     Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    We worked throws on mats hard & often for san shou/san da. I get the sense from your messages here that you didn't train at any CMA fight gyms...
    That's not the point JR...The point is how many, or what percent of CMA schools are fight gyms? And yes, I did compete, though it would be a stretch to label most places where I've trained as fight gyms.

    We're in a thread here about "kung fu grappling". You're in NY right? There's plenty of CMA in NY. How many of the schools there address grappling on a functional level? Really, I'm curious.
  10. Rivington is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/31/2007 11:07am

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     Style: Taijiquan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, the point is that you said "CMA people like to lay claim that thier syle(s) cover all aspects of fighting: striking, kicking, locking/submission, throwing, etc... But the reality is, if they do, then they do a poor job of covering most of them, which = crap." and only now do you offer up qualifiers and a display of backpedaling to acknowledge that gee, maybe CMA people do practice their arts in ways which do have strikes and grapples, and aren't crap.
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