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  1. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2003 11:15am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Though there certainly were other grappling styles that existed before BJJ, I think that before the popularity of BJJ exploded, they were either not quite as advanced in the sub department, and/or had no guard game. The lack of a guard game in particular, made it tough for them to beat BJJ. And it seems from my laymans perspective that the only reason other grappling styles now have a guard game is because they either picked it up from BJJ or were forced to adapt to it bacause of BJJ. Either way, you _could_ say that at least on some level, any grappling art that utilizes a guard game in particular, and many of the common subs of BJJ in general is "using BJJ"."

    Are you saying that BJJ, and I assume the Gracie's in particular invented the guard, or used it to its full potential?
  2. Dochter is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2003 11:27am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    wouldn't it be accurate to say that if you focus on one thing you will refine it beyond what more generalized style are able to do? by focusing almost strictly on ground grappling why would it be inaccurate to say that bjj uses the guard more to its full potential than other arts?

    granted I'm fairly new to ma's and general and grappling in particular but while judo certainly has most of the ground grappling cirriculum of bjj in its newaza its focus on throwing relegates newaza to a lower level of priority. similarly the focus of sambo is also split between throwing and ground fighting (or at least that is the impression I've gotten, could be wrong). While all the techniques may also be in other arts, if those techniques are almost all you work you will learn to use them to a fuller potential.
  3. m4949 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2003 11:30am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have seen that attitude with akido schools before.
    I think with MMA fighting and more mixture of styles any fighter can beat another. It all depends on the skills of the individual, not the style he focuses on.
  4. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2003 11:30am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    YEAH! BJJ RULES! Just tell it to Henry Okazaki and the Oakland boys circa 1948:


    And here are the guys from the American Jujitsu Institute, all standing around bored, waiting for Helio to tell them how to do it!



    This attitude Asia referred to sucks so BAD! Oyama cross trained, Okazaki cross trained, Wally Jay cross trained. Typical ma instructor (reputable,not mcdojo) would be like James Muro: spent more than 35 years studying various martial arts. He has his 8th Dan in Danzan Ryu Jujitsu, his 7th Dan in Kosho Ryu Kenpo, 4th Dan in Shorinji Ryu Karate, 3rd Dan in Judo and Master's level in Decuerda Eskrima. HEY! The stupic **** hasn't done BJJ, so I bet a BJJ green belt could take him on!
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 11/04/2003 11:41am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  5. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2003 11:34am

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     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree that the Gracie's used the guard to its upmost advantages, but they did not create it or invent it or modify it. But they did revolutionise its use in the MA for competition.
    One of the reasons the guard was under used in jujutsu and judo, was that it was considered a "dead" position, the Gracie's open the worlds eyes to its use as a competitive tool.
    Of course in competitive judo, its uses are limited and as for "the street", I am NOT getting into THAT argument !!!!!!
  6. PizDoff is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2003 12:12pm

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     Style: Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I want to learn some of the submission wrestling.....
    Surfing Facebook at work? Spread the good word by adding us on Facebook today! https://www.facebook.com/Bullshido
  7. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2003 12:21pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ronin,

    Yeah, I think you caught me correctly there. The only art I know of that even had guard at all before BJJ was Judo (duh), and from what I understand they way under-utilized it. So BJJ pretty much invented it, at least as it is used today. And I don't think any other grappling art would have much of a chance against a BJJer of equal ability without understanding how BJJ uses guard.

    And lest y'all think I'n nutriding here, don't forget I'm currently Folkstyle wrestling. And I always have had great respect for Judo.

    Regards,
    Matt
  8. shironinja is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2003 12:24pm

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     Style: yes

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Once you did the two months of BJJ it spread through your mind like a virus over-riding any and all previous training.
    Now or never.
  9. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/04/2003 12:27pm

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     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All I know is that it means more idiots with big egos for me to break. I'm content to let fanboys live in their own little world when it comes to the martial arts.

    Some Wing Tsun schools have the same complex. One of my best friends feels the need to go into full trap fighting every time we're just screwing around, and will endlessly armchair spar until you cave in to the superiority of Wing Tsun. It's really too bad I never sparred him.
    Last edited by Dreadnought; 11/04/2003 12:31pm at .
  10. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/04/2003 12:38pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "The only art I know of that even had guard at all before BJJ was Judo (duh), and from what I understand they way under-utilized it. So BJJ pretty much invented it, at least as it is used today. And I don't think any other grappling art would have much of a chance against a BJJer of equal ability without understanding how BJJ uses guard. "

    The guard, Technically, is very old, you can find it in ANY JJJ and even in wrestling, to some extent, but not how the BJJ guys do it. Reason being that when the older styles of JJ were being created, the guard put the defender and a very dangerous position, remember JJJ delt with the armed samurai and the guard against a dagger is NOT a good idea. As for Judo, well, the gurad is BORING to see and not that immpressive when you are trying to sell a sport, know what I mean.
    The guard is great for what it is, which is, better the guard then being mounted.
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