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  1. IndoChinese is offline

    AKAKTK

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 11:09am


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    the general assertion is that tma has been used in real fights to kill people in the past, not that it was used en masse.
  2. M1K3 is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 11:11am


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist
    I don't have any trouble buying the argument that legitimate weapon arts (kendo, western fencing, kali) have "battlefield" origins. My question would be is there a style that claims its unarmed techniques were used exclusively to fight wars? I can't think of one.
    The battlefield pedigree for these arts is questionable also. Yes swords, knives, bow and arrow were used in the battle field, however the way they were used is not the way they are taught and used in a individual martial art. Group combat requires a whole different set of skills than that of the kendoist in a one on one competition. Were some of the techniques drawn from battlefield skills, yes, however footwork would be totally different. The problem to a large degree is that movies portray early combat as a bunch of one on one duals happening at the same time. The reality was large groups of people fighting as units and multiple units fighting as part of a whole. For example your shield may not be intended to protect you, but rather the person standing next to you and you would be protected by someone else’s shield.
  3. The Question is offline
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    Octopussy!

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 11:14am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Striking/Grappling/Poking

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anyone remember that Human Weapon episode on Pankration where they were going on about Spartans holding off Persians with double leg takedowns and neck cranks?
  4. nasreal is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 11:16am


     Style: Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Question
    Anyone remember that Human Weapon episode on Pankration where they were going on about Spartans holding off Persians with double leg takedowns and neck cranks?
    LOL i have to watch that one again. its classic
  5. Grey Owl is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 11:18am


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TMA with proven battlefield effectiveness...archery.

    Agincourt anyone?
  6. Scott Larson is offline
    Scott Larson's Avatar

    Gold Summit Martial Arts Institute

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 11:24am


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is for reasons like this that the battlefield argument is completely worthless.

    "Longbows were difficult to master because the force required to deliver an arrow through the improving armour of mediaeval Europe was very high by modern standards. Although the draw weight of a typical English longbow is disputed, it was at least 360 N (80 lbf) and possibly more than 650 N(143 lbf) with some high-end estimates at 900N. Considerable practice was required to produce the swift and effective combat shooting required. Skeletons of longbow archers are recognizably deformed, with enlarged left arms and often bone spurs on left wrists, left shoulders and right fingers."

    From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

    Unless you want to be some kind of mutant freak, you can't use these reasons.

    Edit: I wrote this post before I saw the above post. Didn't mean to do that.
    ________________________________________

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  7. ChickenBeakFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 11:33am


     Style: Hillbilly Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3
    The battlefield pedigree for these arts is questionable also. Yes swords, knives, bow and arrow were used in the battle field, however the way they were used is not the way they are taught and used in a individual martial art. Group combat requires a whole different set of skills than that of the kendoist in a one on one competition. Were some of the techniques drawn from battlefield skills, yes, however footwork would be totally different. The problem to a large degree is that movies portray early combat as a bunch of one on one duals happening at the same time. The reality was large groups of people fighting as units and multiple units fighting as part of a whole. For example your shield may not be intended to protect you, but rather the person standing next to you and you would be protected by someone else’s shield.
    Right, like I said, "battlefield origins." I'm not under the impression that any battle ever looked like 10,000 olympic fencing matches going on at once. They're sports that evolved from principles developed during times of war. Claiming to be "battlefield tested" may be overstating the case, but I don't recall ever seeing the aforementioned arts being advertised that way. I'm just saying it's not completely far-fetched to make that claim.

    And which style claims that its unarmed techniques were used by unarmed soldiers during an unarmed war? You make some interesting points, but I have the nagging feeling that you're attempting to refute arguments that were never presented.
  8. M1K3 is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 11:43am


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Archery as used in target shooting or even hunting is different that archery on the battlefield. An archer who is target shooting will shoot a set number of arrows at a target from a stationary position. They are usually shooting 3 or 6 arrows at a time. In battle the archer had to be able to maneuver with foot and mounted troops to provide support, be able to fire large number of arrows over a long period of time and to fire in rhythm with the other archers to improve the effectiveness of the shoots. They often worked in teams of three with a back up archer and shield bearer and an apprentice to feed them arrows from a barrel. The team would often have several barrels of arrows with them as they moved across the battle field. So shooting an arrow is a part of a combat archers skill but there was a whole lot more to it.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 11:49am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChickenBeakFist
    I have the nagging feeling that you're attempting to refute arguments that were never presented.
    No he isn't.

    No, I'm not going to search the threads out. I know I have had the argument raised at least 5 times this year. We are only a little over a week into 2008.
  10. The Question is offline
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    Octopussy!

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    Posted On:
    1/10/2008 11:52am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Striking/Grappling/Poking

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Owl
    TMA with proven battlefield effectiveness...archery.

    Agincourt anyone?
    **** yeah. Just goes to show, you can still lose when you have teh mount.
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