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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2008 12:16am

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Question
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli
    I once heard a BJJer say that pulling guard is actually better than a takedown in sub grappling (with no strikes allowed) his reasoning was that if you are in somebody's guard, your only options are to pass or use leg locks, but being in guard opens up a magical fairy land of moves to do (Armbar, triangle choke, guillotine, omoplata, hip heist sweep, scissor sweep, kimura, etc.)
    Yeah, I'm leaning towards agreeing with that statement.
    You are nuts.

    Firstly, you can rain punches from within someone's guard. But ignoring that fact and assuming a strictly sports jits POV, consider the following errors in that statement.

    The BJJer who told Vince that, let's call him Paco. Paco says that pulling guard is better than a takedown because you have less options from within someone's guard. The problem with that statement is that just because you execute a takedown, that does not necessitate to end up in your opponent's guards, not unless your opponent's jits is much superior to your, or if your takedowns just fucking blows and sucks more than a vacuum cleaner.)

    takedowns =/= ending up in someone's guard.

    Also, you always have the option to, you know, get up and get off his guard. I've seen it done at NAGA where the guy just stood up explosively. The other guy just kept trying to boot-scoot his way to no avail. In frustration he tried to get up just to be taken down and side mounted. Of course, easier said than done, but the point is that you do not have to stay there. You have the option to get up (if you have the skills to do so and if it benefits you in match.)

    Anyways, **** Paco.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2008 6:47am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Again, a lot of this depends on how good your takedowns are. My takedowns are mediocre, not terrible, but not awesome.
    Some guys I can get the takedown on and land in an advantageous position, some guys I can't. If I can recognize which is which early enough I can decide how best to keep the match moving at MY pace. Which is really the most important thing. Be in control of your opponent, don't let them dictate where the match goes.
  3. leere_form is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2008 6:52am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    pulling guard is bad.

    throwing someone and landing on them past their guard is awesome.

    jumping past someone's guard who does the "brazilian butt-flop" is also awesome.

    on a related note, one of my judo instructors cracked a guy's rib in a bjj tournament with a harai-goshi-makikomi and won by submission via throw. :D
  4. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2008 9:46am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Question
    "Takedown defense is for pussies. Real men pull guard."

    - Das Moose
    After

    1) Losing a pankration match because I pulled guard and my opponent achilles locked me

    2) Losing a sub grappling match because I tried to pull guard and my opponent just stepped round and armbarred me in one movement.

    3) Drawing a pankration match because I pulled guard and my opponent stalled for the duration of the match.

    On the other hand I came second in the sub grappling tourney because I subbed five people from my guard...

    Basically it breaks down like this. If I pull guard, I avoid getting taken down to a worse position as other posters said. However, even if my opponent isn't as technically skilled as I am, because he has his weight backing him up , if he knows what he's doing a lot of the time he can defend well enough that either he'll get a standup or he'll pass when I get frustrated and start really going for stuff. Which brings us to the second problem. If anything goes wrong for me from the guard, I'm on my back either in half guard, under side, or worse. If anything goes wrong on top - hey, i'm still on top.

    I've come to the conclusion that even if you're primarily a guard player you should be looking to get good at a few takedowns (you can always pull guard if you can't take the guy down after a few tries) and develop your top game, and always try and play top.

    I had a BJJ match a while back where I was down on points and in half guard bottom. I was completely gassed. (This was a result of pulling guard and my opponent using his technique and weight to defend my submission attempts) . My opponent was pretty tired to I knew that I had to put my opponent on his back because there was no way I was going to sub him with the gas I had left and if he passed I was screwed. So I put everything I had into a (not very good but effective) sweep, at which point I was able to put my weight on him and get a brief rest while slowly passing. I won the match based on points for the guard pass I was able to pull off because we were both tired but I was on top.

    Imagine how easier that would have been for me if I'd just had taken the guy down in the first place?

    By all means work on your guard, you should try and have a great guard, but only use it if you have to. Only pull guard if you have to. If you're primarily a guard player I would strongly recommend spending the next few months working takedowns and always playing top in sparring, only using your guard to get back on top. I used to get frustrated because my top game was so bad that I thought pulling guard was much better.
  5. JMass is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2008 10:35am


     Style: BJJ-Caique, Shootfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Das Moose

    Basically it breaks down like this. If I pull guard, I avoid getting taken down to a worse position as other posters said. However, even if my opponent isn't as technically skilled as I am, because he has his weight backing him up , if he knows what he's doing a lot of the time he can defend well enough that either he'll get a standup or he'll pass when I get frustrated and start really going for stuff. Which brings us to the second problem. If anything goes wrong for me from the guard, I'm on my back either in half guard, under side, or worse. If anything goes wrong on top - hey, i'm still on top.

    I've come to the conclusion that even if you're primarily a guard player you should be looking to get good at a few takedowns (you can always pull guard if you can't take the guy down after a few tries) and develop your top game, and always try and play top.

    ....

    By all means work on your guard, you should try and have a great guard, but only use it if you have to. Only pull guard if you have to. If you're primarily a guard player I would strongly recommend spending the next few months working takedowns and always playing top in sparring, only using your guard to get back on top. I used to get frustrated because my top game was so bad that I thought pulling guard was much better.
    I think that this makes a TON of sense for me (and my limited game). I believe that I will base my game plan on this. Develop a great guard and then try my best to not have to use it because I am always trying to be on top. :-) Guard will be my fallback position.
  6. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2008 10:54am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As it was explained to me you should have a guard you are confident in so that you can be more aggressive from on top. Then if you get swept or something it's not so bad, you're comfortable in the guard. Obviously the idea is going to be to get into an advantageous top position as quickly as possible. It's only in situations where you feel like your opponent will be the one to end up with the advantage from a takedown attempt that you should consider pulling guard. Just make sure you actually pull guard and aren't just monkey humping the guys legs.
  7. leere_form is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2008 11:31am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i used to be a habitual guard player, and that's not a bad thing to be for a while, but now my singular goal whether standing or on the ground is to put the guy on his back and put me on top of him. then do some fancy subs, give him a noogie, whatever.

    when you're playing guard, there are three basic things you can do:

    1. sweep
    2. stand up
    3. submit

    (according to our very own blindfury, bjj black belt extraordinaire)

    you should be able to do all of these, but you should never pull guard in hopes of doing any of them. sweeping someone is less efficient than throwing them and landing in top position; standing up from guard is less efficient than not being taken down in the first place; and submitting someone from the bottom is less efficient than submitting someone from any top position.

    minimum effort, maximum effect. it is better to take someone down and pass their guard all at once than to drag them into your guard and then try to work a sweep or sub.

    that said, you should never let someone get any better position on you than being in your guard. if they get past your guard, scramble, explode, do whatever it takes to get it back or get away from them. the guard is literally your last line of defense, and that's important to develop so you feel comfortable on the ground, but it seems silly to me to intentionally let someone get that far. =P
  8. Roidie McDouchebag is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/07/2008 4:44pm

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     Style: Snatch Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  9. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    1/07/2008 4:52pm

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    O M G. That was probably the most hilarious thing I've seen in days. Cracky wins this thread.
  10. JMass is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/08/2008 5:51pm


     Style: BJJ-Caique, Shootfighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    lmao.

    That is indeed what I saw, just not with the strike at the end.
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