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  1. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2008 10:59pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BomberH
    Tom you are correct Kano went without grade.

    So what do we have on Helio Gracie:

    1. Potentially self graded / graded by friends with lower ranks

    2. Factually incorrect lineage and history (i.e. Maeda = Kodokan not JuJitsu)

    LET THE INQUISITION BEGIN

    Who's going to email this Helio Gracie and ask to see copies of his dan grade certificates 1st through to 10th.
    Keep in mind that Kano was very Western in his approach. While I wouldn't call him an apologist, he came pretty close. Funikashi was also trying to appease the Japanese in his quest to take Okinawan indigenous Te and make it more Pan Asian. O Sensei, who was a more traditional teacher is a better example when considering why a rank and title is an issue in a traditional Japanese art.

    The reason Kano did not discuss rank in Judo was probably because he wanted to disabuse people of the notion that arts considered traditional Japanese Military Arts could be effective against the new thoroughly modern art of JUdo. If you read some of the original Judo Texts prior to World War 2 they sound positively arrogant. There are many references to the old Ju Jutsu which has been perfected in Judo.

    Kano wanted the image to be different for Judo so he didn't emphasize the traditional titles and honorifics, it was not out of a respect for the hierarchy that would have one rank oneself as a higher dan because they founded the art.
  2. Kickbox is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/04/2008 11:40pm


     Style: Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It may be that Rorion asked his dad to wear the 10th dan. He deserves it, no questions asked. Or, it may be that several 10th dan from Brazil elevated him to that rank. Fact is he has it now .
  3. BomberH is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 6:50am


     Style: Judo, BJJ & Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This whole Helio 10th Dan thing sounds like classic Bullshido to me. Dodgy self promotions and then supporters saying "hey, you should train with the guy and his system. Then you'll see he deserves the grade etc etc....."
  4. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 6:58am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ultimately, he's a 10th Dan if he says he is and the value of that is determined by his demonstrated skill and the value of his students. There are plenty of people with 'official' X Dan ranks in shitty MAs who can't fight for toffee but can produce certificates from signed by lineage holders from a long-line of 'officially graded' people who also can't fight.

    What's the point ?
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  5. Rock Ape is online now
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 7:56am

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Ultimately, he's a 10th Dan if he says he is and the value of that is determined by his demonstrated skill and the value of his students. There are plenty of people with 'official' X Dan ranks in shitty MAs who can't fight for toffee but can produce certificates from signed by lineage holders from a long-line of 'officially graded' people who also can't fight.

    What's the point ?
    The point is.. rank is entirely unimportant if you can indeed fight, so why have it in the first place and why claim 10th dan.

    As soon as I see people using these grades (regardless of their fighting ability) I immediately wonder about their motive and agenda. *IF* they are indeed good fighters and no one is doubting that, why does one need to be a 10th dan ? The answer is simple they don't unless they're marketing their school or their business in the commercial world.
  6. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 8:12am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why have grades full stop? We all know there are blackbelts of various styles out there who can't fight. If they can't fight then whatever Dan they have is a source of amusement, whether they awarded it to themselves or not. If they can fight then they can be a 25th Dan head of style if they want, it won't produce more than a shrug.

    BJJ has belts. It inherited this concept from Judo. The belts are based on real ability in ground-fighting without strikes. Helio is the 'head of his style', so his belt might as well be numerically highest. It doesn't matter.
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  7. Jadonblade is offline
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    Hoo Ha!

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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 8:21am

    supporting member
     Style: San Da, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I also wonder what effect a lifelong pursuit of bjj will have on your ambitions. It creates a very goal orientated mindset, maybe he still wants a goal to pursue.
  8. BomberH is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 8:47am


     Style: Judo, BJJ & Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Grades are a useful tool to help students challenge themself and measure their own performance. It helps students to set appropriate goals with regards their development within the art. As a founder of the system therefore the grade has no relevance. Self graded individuals only grade themself (or get their minions to vote on a promotion) for either ego or marketing i.e. I'm a 10th Dan in Gracie Jiu Jitsu that means I'm better than the Kodokan 6th Dan teaching Judo around the block from me.

    Maybe Helio and Carlos found Judo gradings too demanding and self graded in Jiu Jitsu. Judo is tough on the body as it doesn't use leverage, Kuzushi (balance breaking) or tsukuri (preparation). :chewy:
    Last edited by BomberH; 1/05/2008 8:50am at .
  9. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 8:50am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BomberH
    Maybe Helio and Carlos found Judo gradings too demanding and self graded in Jiu Jitsu. Judo is tough on the body as it doesn't use leverage, Kuzushi (balance breaking) or tsukuri (preparation).:bully:
    What?
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  10. BomberH is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/05/2008 9:02am


     Style: Judo, BJJ & Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    What?
    Per Helio Gracie in "The Gracie Way":

    So I started to study the leverage points on the human body. If you use leverage, you can multiply your effect many times over, much like you use a car jack to lift a car. You can't lift a car, but when you use a jack you can easily lift it. I simply adapted the use of a "jack" to every position of Jiu Jitsu........I made the sport accessible to the weakling so he could defend against a strong person - and now even the strong ones must learn my techniques so they don't get spanked by a weakling.
    So there you have it a self graded 10th Dan says that he adapted Maeda's Jiu Jitsu (i.e. Kodokan Judo) and added leverage to every position.

    He made the sport accessible to the weakling and then uses Kimura's size as a excuse for defeat in their historic match.

    I'm mean I respect his ability, fighting spirit and his contribution to grappling but the Gracie Way is full of bulls**t. However, this is old ground. Getting back on topic.

    Where did the 10th Dan come from. How is this different from classic Bullshidoka who set up their own style, self promote to 10th Dan and claim a false lineage.
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