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  1. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 10:30am


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    MMA guard becoming Judo turtle?

    I was talking with one of my friends at work, heís a BJJ Purple and Iím a BJJ White, about how the guard in MMA is becoming the equivalent of the turtle in Judo. It seems like more and more people are using the bottom guard position as a way to clinch and stall until they can get stood back up. I donít think you see as many people using the guard as a position to set up sweeps or submissions any more. Just wondering what opinion any of you out there may have on this. Pro or con, what do you think?

    Mods, I put this in YMAS on purpose to get a larger audience, no problem if it needs to be moved.
  2. Ronin.74 is offline

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 10:36am


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you are not a solid grappler and know your opponent is going to dominate you on the ground, then your best option is to probably stall from the bottom until you get stood up. So in a sense your right, the guard is becoming BJJ's "turtle". Most of the guys you see using this strategy are strikers by nature, with weak grappling skills, from an MMA perspective this is a good strategic move, it can also make for boring fights though.
  3. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 10:39am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3
    It seems like more and more people are using the bottom guard position as a way to clinch and stall until they can get stood back up.
    I think that this is greatly due to improved Sub-defense on the part of fighters. It's not like Submission Grappling, where you get all the time you need to set up and work. Not to mention the fact that hammerfists and short elbows greatly hamper a good submission artist.

    Grapplers need to be of much, much higher caliber than they used to in order to work well from their guard, these days.

    --Joe
  4. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 10:44am


     Style: submission grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin.74
    If you are not a solid grappler and know your opponent is going to dominate you on the ground, then your best option is to probably stall from the bottom until you get stood up. So in a sense your right, the guard is becoming BJJ's "turtle". Most of the guys you see using this strategy are strikers by nature, with weak grappling skills, from an MMA perspective this is a good strategic move, it can also make for boring fights though.
    I agree, but... It seems to be happening a lot more. The bottom guard is only used as a set up or for offense by what seems to be a smaller and smaller number of fighters. Could be wrong but that is my impression.
  5. Ronin.74 is offline

    霍氏八极拳徒弟

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 10:51am


     Style: CMA,Muay Thai ,Yudo,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kung-Fu Joe
    I think that this is greatly due to improved Sub-defense on the part of fighters. It's not like Submission Grappling, where you get all the time you need to set up and work. Not to mention the fact that hammerfists and short elbows greatly hamper a good submission artist.

    Grapplers need to be of much, much higher caliber than they used to in order to work well from their guard, these days.

    --Joe
    This is true.
  6. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 10:55am


     Style: submission grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Again, yes but. Even if you don't see submission attemps how about at least trying to sweep him. Or maybe, you could quite rewarding people for stalling by standing them up. Either learn to use the guard or take your beating. Your choice.
  7. kismasher is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 10:57am

    supporting member
     Style: fitness

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i understand why fighters are loathe to go for subs from guard as they can sacrifice position if they fail, but what is up with no one even attempting sweeps? the hip bump sweep that Jared Rollins pulled in the TUF Finale show was nice, don't know why there's not more of that.

    m1k3 posted too fast.
  8. Kung-Fu Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 11:04am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by M1K3
    Again, yes but. Even if you don't see submission attemps how about at least trying to sweep him. Or maybe, you could quite rewarding people for stalling by standing them up. Either learn to use the guard or take your beating. Your choice.
    As I understand it, though, the stand-them-back-up rule isn't for the sake of the fighters, it's for the sake of the audience. Generally, holding someone down in your guard, even if they're landing the odd strike, isn't going to get a person Knocked Out. It's just wasting time.

    On a similar subject, why don't we see more attempts to Pass Guard by the top man? A lot of guys, these days, are comfortable just trying to GnP from inside, and don't care that they'll get stood back up.

    --Joe
  9. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 11:10am


     Style: submission grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with that also. Not sure what to do though, it seems the skill level for the guard game has diminished, or maybe we are finding out the guard just isn't that great of position for either player and can I say it, the Gracies were wrong!?!
  10. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    1/02/2008 11:14am


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well one thing, you never hear anyone talk about "How he won that round with that sweep." Or "How that guard pass just secured that round."

    To win a fight you need to do two things, punch the guy, and take him down. Nothing else seems to really matter.

    You could have a fantastic guard, constantly active working sweeps, subs, etc. But if you got taken down each round and worked the whole round from your back, you just lost a fight.
    "a martial art that has no rules is nothing but violence" - Kenji Tomiki
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