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  1. socratic is offline

    How do elenchus?

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 8:28pm


     Style: gah, transition again

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    "Help the noob" - programming, etc

    Hey all. This morning (approx 1 hour/2 hours ago) I hit the gym and subsequently the weights for the first time in probably a few months. Now, when I've usually discussed matters on this subforum I quickly admit my lifting history has been infrequent and poor, so for all intents and purposes I'm a slightly informed noob. Now, like many noobs I would imagine, I hit a real road block and couldn't do a full body workout, which was only about 5 or 6 exercises, because I gassed. I was shaking, sweating, gasping for air, and my brain was screaming "Flee! Bail! Leg it!" so my abs and back really didn't get much of a workout, and my shoulders only really as stabilisers (still hit them pretty hard, though). I need your advice, o wizened lifters of this subforum, 'cause I really want to kick my ass into strength and shape and I figure if I'm not hitting my core and back then I'm failing that.

    As of now (post workout) I weight 77 kg (remember I just sweat a fair bit, then drank a fair amount of water and then a protein shake) and am about 180 something centimetres tall. I'm 18. I opted to use dumbells for these exercises, as that was what I was doing at home, and there was no one around to help me figure out the nuances of the squatting or bench racks.
    So, here's what happened:
    3 sets benchpress: First set was a bit of a warmup, 10 kg dumbells each hand- stopped at about 15 reps, as I was pretty much warmed up (mmm, lactic burn). Second set, 15 kg, about 8-9 reps. Third set, 15 kg (I had intended to pyramid the weight, but I figured I was doing alright with these two weights), only got about 4 reps before I gave out (had a guy spotting me).
    4 sets squats, 10 kg, 12 reps first set, second to fourth, all 15 kg, 10 reps, 8 reps, 5 reps (I added another set just in case I hadn't hit my legs hard enough).
    Hammer curl (so I hit the forearms too), 3 sets, 10 kg, 10 reps, 15 kg, 8 reps right arm, about 6-7 reps left, 15 kg, about 6 reps right arm, about 4 left arm.

    I then made an effort to do some ab work, but couldn't really seem to hit it right and felt pretty much exhausted. After some pottering around trying to figure out how I could do more exercises, I head home. So, guys, what am I doing wrong? Should I consider doing a split routine, such as doing above routine on day A, and then two days later do say, stiff legged deadlift, rows and chins? General advice would be appreciated.
  2. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 8:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What you're doing wrong is attempting to craft your own routine without any real background to do so.

    This will be a decent routine for you to follow

    http://forum.dutchbodybuilding.com/f...routine-63770/

    Do it for a long while, and keep up your reading.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  3. Greyfox is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 9:39pm


     Style: Wing Chun; Modern Wushu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have to admit that I'm technically a beginner when it comes to strength training, but I know a fair bit of theory, so I can talk somewhat from that perspective.

    First of all; what are you aiming for? Building mass? Max strength? Muscular endurance? Or out-and-out power?
    Second of all; if you're new to weight training, you'll get little more benefit from training three times a week than two. You'll probably know that most change in the first six months is neurological - your nerves getting better at using your muscles. You're just as well using the extra time for rest. Nonetheless - yes, I would consider making a split routine. Upper/lower body is a popular and easy way of splitting it - alternatively, you could even split it upper/lower/core. Either way, I'd pick a few exercises that can work for you, and perfect them.

    The techniques I choose from:

    Freeweight - Benchpress, bicep curls, wrist curls, upright row, lat pulldowns, deadlifts, squats
    Bodyweight - Press-ups, single-leg squats, horse stance, supine leg lifts.

    Technique is all-important. I recommend getting a friend to spot for you, especially if they can point out and correct any flaws in technique. If you don't have a friend who can teach you proper technique (they should generally be qualified, else experienced), then find a professional who can. The letters 'CSCS' are often good to see at the end of someone's name when it comes to this.
    Last edited by Greyfox; 12/29/2007 9:41pm at .
  4. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 9:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: In Transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What do you recommend for someone with knee problems? Yrkoon said squats would be bad for a while, maybe forever. I've been doing light leg exercises, including body weight squats (wider stance, though), but don't know about throwing weights on.
  5. Greyfox is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 10:05pm


     Style: Wing Chun; Modern Wushu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Poop Loops - have you had any physio/treatment on your knee? Or been diagnosed with specific complaints?

    I myself tend to get play-up from my knees, but I know that I don't do enough conditioning with them (I need to drop single leg squats for a while - tension in my quads is causing my knees to click).

    Depending on what your knee condition is, using weights may be beneficial or detrimental - it also depends on the weight program you use. If in doubt, I'd recommend seeking professional advice.
  6. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 10:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfox
    I have to admit that I'm technically a beginner when it comes to strength training, but I know a fair bit of theory, so I can talk somewhat from that perspective.

    First of all; what are you aiming for? Building mass? Max strength? Muscular endurance? Or out-and-out power?
    Second of all; if you're new to weight training, you'll get little more benefit from training three times a week than two. You'll probably know that most change in the first six months is neurological - your nerves getting better at using your muscles. You're just as well using the extra time for rest. Nonetheless - yes, I would consider making a split routine. Upper/lower body is a popular and easy way of splitting it - alternatively, you could even split it upper/lower/core. Either way, I'd pick a few exercises that can work for you, and perfect them.

    The techniques I choose from:

    Freeweight - Benchpress, bicep curls, wrist curls, upright row, lat pulldowns, deadlifts, squats
    Bodyweight - Press-ups, single-leg squats, horse stance, supine leg lifts.

    Technique is all-important. I recommend getting a friend to spot for you, especially if they can point out and correct any flaws in technique. If you don't have a friend who can teach you proper technique (they should generally be qualified, else experienced), then find a professional who can. The letters 'CSCS' are often good to see at the end of someone's name when it comes to this.
    I would seriously re-examine the techniques you choose from personally, and most beginners would benefit more from full body work than splitting.

    PL, for bad knees, you may consider straight legged deadlifts and good mornings.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  7. Greyfox is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 10:37pm


     Style: Wing Chun; Modern Wushu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    I would seriously re-examine the techniques you choose from personally, and most beginners would benefit more from full body work than splitting.
    Any tips on what I should be doing?

    ::edit:: Followed the link you gave - top notch program. I seem to have lost sight of the 'one push, one pull' way of looking at it, among other things. I would love to be able to do Pavel's bodyweight workout, but I don't have access to a chin-up bar.
    Last edited by Greyfox; 12/29/2007 10:41pm at .
  8. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 10:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In reality, it would be to have a routine rather than a selection of exercises. If those are the only exercises you do then you're doing way too much upper body pulling and not enough upper body pushing, which will lead to shoulder issues later in life, along with basic strength imbalances. Movements like "wrist curls" are fundamentally worthless. Even if you want forearm size, there's so many better things you could do, like grip work. You're doing very much upperbody work and only 2 lower body exercises. Etc etc.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  9. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2007 10:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Regarding a chin-up bar, do you have access to a door? Or a tree branch? Or what are you doing squats off of? You could most likely do pull-ups off of that rig.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  10. socratic is offline

    How do elenchus?

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2007 7:02am


     Style: gah, transition again

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the input. Actually Emevas, I have that little thread in my Firefox favs, has been there for at least 6 months- where I got the idea of the whole bench, squat, deadlift thing from. When I went to a local physical trainer and bodybuilder (I won't bother stating the awards he's won, because it isn't important and I don't like name-dropping) he suggested I do bench, squat and stiff legged deadlift, because of my lower back problems that could do with sorting, with hammer curls (they're the ones which activate the forearms too, yeah?) and a couple of ab exercises like crunches and supermans. I meant to do some form of deadlift or row to go with what I'd done today, but I had an attack of the vagina and seemed to gas.

    Obviously, I'm not qualified to figure this **** out on my own, which is why I've asked, basically, but out of curiousity- should I throw in some form of deadlift or row into my 'order' rather than the curls? I realise the curls are just fluff exercises, but now that I can tell how far into a routine I'm going to get (about 3 exercises or so) I really need to prioritise until I get strong enough and fit enough to do more. Should I have back work in every time I go the gym? (I'm guessing about 3/4 times, since I need one rest day I think). Is doing rows, stiff legged deadlifts and chins overworking my back? As you've said, I've done a lot of pushing movements and not really enough pulling, and that's the sort of thing I'd like to work out.

    My goals are pretty much just to get bigger and stronger. I'm doing the whey protein thing as well, by putting two scoops into my milk shaker and chowing down on some foodstuffs that the guy recommended.
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