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  1. Carrera26 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 12:39am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    Specific explosiveness training for lower body is almost worthless if your maximal squat is lower than 1.5 bodyweight, specific explosiveness training for upper body is unnecessary for almost any sport, speed work and endurance work are best worked in an SPP context rather than a general, and Core work is included in Starting Strength, which you should know if you've read it, and if you haven't you shouldn't be commenting on it.
    Upper body explosiveness not important in any sport? Sorry, man, I'm just not seeing how it's not the MOST important feature in nearly every sport, especially combat sports. How are you going to look at any fighter and tell me that they don't constantly use their upper body in an explosive way? Whether it's a punch or a quick grab for a submission hold, that's the primary strength quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    If you think Squats, Deadlifts, and Presses don't engage your core, you're a moron.
    I'm not a moron, because I know that he will need Core strength throughout his entire range of motion, that all of these are Maximal and none Explosive or Speed, and that there's nothing mentioned that targets the rotational core muscles. I also have no intention of insulting anyone else, and would ask that people not insult me as well... Although I am remembering that this is the kind of board where that doesn't work very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    Explosive and speed strength are a percentage of maximal strength, and if your maximal strength is weak, they will be weak, even if you train them specifically.
    I think that this misunderstanding is at the base of our difference here. Explosiveness is most certainly NOT just a fraction of Maximal strength, but it's own specific quantity. It has it's own neural paths, and must be trained specifically. In fact, research has shown (Siff 2003) that training excessively <by volume or concentration of training> with maximal strength actually decreased the force of a boxers punch. It has also been shown to reduce speed and ability to display technical skill (Verkhoskansky 1977). So, while a base of Maximal stregth is, without question, of huge importance to this athlete I don't believe that concentrating solely on this strength quality is really what suits his needs best.

    To show you that I am not just blowing smoke, please read this section of the Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine about the specific forms of strength.
    Last edited by Carrera26; 1/01/2008 8:18am at .
  2. ah_dut is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 12:57am

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    I believe that the point is that if your levels of maximal strength are extremely low, there is no way that you will have great explosive strength. Pavel T. says something very similar in Power to the People: namly that there is little point training endurance for example if you are very weak: you are building up the ability to endure at a lot level of strength...
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 1:24am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrera26
    Upper body explosiveness not important in any sport? Sorry, man, I'm just not seeing how it's not the MOST important feature in nearly every sport, especially combat sports. How are you going to look at any fighter and tell me that they don't constantly use their upper body in an explosive way? Whether it's a punch or a quick grab for a submission hold, that's the primary strength quality.
    He does have a point. A punch's strenght is not based on upper body explosiveness and power but in the ability to put your weight behind it in an explosive manner (posterior chain based.)

    And a quick grab has more to do with fast reflexes. When one usually refers to explosiveness, it refers to the ability to produce the greatest amount of force in the shortest amount of time: power, as in the lockdown face of a deadlift, the upper part of a jerk or the throw of a disk or javelin. Upper body power =/= fast upper body reflex.

    I think we need to clarify what exactly "explosiveness" means before this debate is continued.

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  4. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 2:00am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrera26
    Upper body explosiveness not important in any sport? Sorry, man, I'm just not seeing how it's not the MOST important feature in nearly every sport, especially combat sports. How are you going to look at any fighter and tell me that they don't constantly use their upper body in an explosive way? Whether it's a punch or a quick grab for a submission hold, that's the primary strength quality.
    A quick grab involves quickness, not explosive power, and upper body explosiveness has almost nothing to do with punching, which uses lower body explosive rotation and drive to "throw" a fist on the end of a /relaxed/ arm.

    I'm not a moron, because I know that he will need Core strength throughout his entire range of motion, that all of these are Maximal and none Explosive or Speed,
    You are a moron, since you apparently don't know what a Power Clean is.

    I think that this misunderstanding is at the base of our difference here. Explosiveness is most certainly NOT just a fraction of Maximal strength, but it's own specific quantity. It has it's own neural paths, and must be trained specifically.
    It's not /just/ a fraction of Maximal Strength, but the maximum force you can apply explosively is a fraction of your maximal strength, so if your maximum strength is and remains low your explosive strength will be low no matter how much you train it specifically. For someone whose maximal strength is as low as aw's, focusing on explosiveness is not a worthwhile investment of training time.
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  5. Carrera26 is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 10:11am


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    To quote the aforementioned Encyclopedia, "Explosive Strength characterizes the ability to produce maximal force in a minimal time."

    I did not clearly explain what I was picturing in my head when I described the "quick grab in grappling". I was picturing on the ground/in guard, where you are working against your opponent and quickly trying to put them in an disadvantageous position. Off your feet, expecially working from the back, against a working opponent, this is where upper-body explosiveness will be primary. To further define, I see upper body as any muscles, from the core on up, that you could still use off your feet.

    If you are going to keep calling me a moron, even though you don't know me at all, then you are a moron for not knowing that the Power Clean does not train rotational core muscles, which are of paramount importance in nearly any strike. These muscles are a massive part of the process and key to the velocity of any rotational strike, and their strength is all that ties that strong Power Clean developed PC chain to that strike, be it a round kick or punch.

    I do agree that a base of strength is neccesary and needed, but also knowing about Conjugate Periodization, I am of the opinion that he could develop other attributes at the same time, like Cardio, without really detracting from the Strength development.
  6. angry welshman is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 10:57am


     

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    Fatherdog, you're mentioning maximal strength. You're talking 1RM now right? If so, what do you see is a good 1RM as a percentage of bodyweight for the lifts mentioned? Only ever tested my max on the deadlift, which was 130kg at 68kg bodyweight. I've pushed 110kg off the pins in a squat rack, but I'm not sure if it was from parallel so not counting it. 95kg might be a better estimate.
  7. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 1:52pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrera26
    I did not clearly explain what I was picturing in my head when I described the "quick grab in grappling". I was picturing on the ground/in guard, where you are working against your opponent and quickly trying to put them in an disadvantageous position. Off your feet, expecially working from the back, against a working opponent, this is where upper-body explosiveness will be primary.
    And you're wrong. Upper body explosiveness plays a minimal role in groundfighting.

    If you are going to keep calling me a moron, even though you don't know me at all, then you are a moron for not knowing that the Power Clean does not train rotational core muscles, which are of paramount importance in nearly any strike. These muscles are a massive part of the process and key to the velocity of any rotational strike, and their strength is all that ties that strong Power Clean developed PC chain to that strike, be it a round kick or punch.
    First of all, you're wrong; the rotational core muscles are what allow you to rotate your upper body independently of your hips, which is exactly what you /don't/ do in striking - you rotate your hips, which you do by driving with your legs, not your rotational core muscles.

    Second of all, aw hasn't said a damn thing about striking; all he's said is A) he wants to build up his strength a bit, and B) he plans on taking BJJ in twelve months.
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  8. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 1:55pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by angry welshman
    Fatherdog, you're mentioning maximal strength. You're talking 1RM now right? If so, what do you see is a good 1RM as a percentage of bodyweight for the lifts mentioned? Only ever tested my max on the deadlift, which was 130kg at 68kg bodyweight. I've pushed 110kg off the pins in a squat rack, but I'm not sure if it was from parallel so not counting it. 95kg might be a better estimate.
    http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLi...Standards.html
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  9. angry welshman is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 2:42pm


     

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    ****, that's a 1RM strength standard? That throws everything out a bit. Though I'm near the novice standards for press, bench and squat, my deadlift is 25 pounds over the intermediate level for a 148lb lifter LOL. Need some recalculation I think!
  10. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/01/2008 3:22pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by angry welshman
    ****, that's a 1RM strength standard? That throws everything out a bit. Though I'm near the novice standards for press, bench and squat, my deadlift is 25 pounds over the intermediate level for a 148lb lifter LOL. Need some recalculation I think!
    Don't recalculate anything. Your numbers projected over time look pretty good. Here's some reasons why:

    1) Doing a 1RM is significantly different than a 5RM, and a hell of a lot different than a 1x5 RM, 3x5 RM or 5x5 RM, particularily in newbie, and more specifically in the deadlift for anyone. Bench follows a somewhat standard ratio between the amounts at 1, 1x5, 3x5 and 5x5. Deadlift does not - its more exhausting and invovles more muscles. There will be a greater disparity between a 1 RM in it and almost any other lift.

    2) Those are averages. The chance of a new lifter being just average in all lifts without one being low and one being high is improbable. For example, a kid who grew up on a farm will have a crazy good deadlift from day one. A 18 year old just out of basic will have a good bench from crazy push up volume. Over time, those differences will level off.

    3) Deadlift uses such a large number of muscles that it isn't abnormal for you to have such a large variation in the deadlift if you have strong hams and good core strength.

    4) At the end of Starting Strength if your deadlift is still way high, and other lifts are average, that just means you are a natural deadlifter.

    5) At the end of Starting Strength if your deadlift has not come as far and the other lfits have caught up, its to be expected and nothing to be disappointed in. You were already closer to your genetic potential from day one in it than in other lifts for any number of reasons.

    6) You listed numbers as goals. Numbers are just numbers unless you plan on being a powerlifter, which is why I harped on you about giving something other than numbers. Numbers are really great for tracking progress; not so much for representing accomplishment in anything but powerlifting. You plan on being a BJJ guy then doing MMA. Focus on being heavier and pound for pound very strong, the number are just tools to track progress.

    7) You will have to adjust goals as you go. Goals are targets that produce motivation. If you hit the numbers fast, look for new goals. If you hit the numbers slow, but are making steady progress, you will still need to look for new goals eventually, but wait until you have a little bit of a track record before starting to revise your targets.

    8) Without being condescending, there is a better than 50% chance you didn't manage to lock out the deadlift correctly, and therefore have an inaccurate measurement of your strength in the lift. Not having both shoulders and both legs locked out can easily create a 25% - 75% difference in how much your "max." Same for partial squats. In novice lifters, its hard to judge whether or not you locked all the way without an experienced lifter telling you whether your did or not. Particularily with at near or above capacity weights.

    9) There is a chance you have a lot of mental toughness - no lift benefits more from this than deadlift. Most new people have more muscle than they can bring to bear on any given lift (this is part of having an underdeveloped CNS. Mentally tough people can really work a deadlift for a long time and get more weight up in a way that makes other lifts just drop because of the mecahnics of the lift. But usually it involves a lot of hitching, back rolling, and wiggling - all of which means you really missed the lift and probably risked or incurred injury (which in a back can take years to reveal itself).

    10) Most likely, its a combination of 1, 2, 3, 8 and 9. None of which means you are an idiot, ***** or an ass. Nobody on the board with any experience hasn't made some kind of similar mistake on the lifts early. It proably was in the squat or deadlift. The difference is you were smart enough to ask the question. I was lucky enough to have a coach to answer to the first time I stepped in a weight room. Other had to figure it out themselves. Its better to be one of the first two.
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