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  1. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2007 8:59pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What are you're goals?
  2. angry welshman is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2007 5:24am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhemsley
    What are you're goals?
    Weight: 75kg
    Press: 47.5kg
    Bench: 70kg
    Squat: 92.5kg
    Deadlift: 115kg
    Power clean: 67.5kg

    All for sets and reps in SS.
    Last edited by angry welshman; 12/28/2007 5:31am at .
  3. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2007 7:13am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I mean general goals like - want to lose weight, get stronger, burn fat, get ready for some competition, run a marathon in 3 years, look great wearing only a fig leaf, etc.

    Also in your posting you said, you have a list of weights and the statement "all for sets and reps." Is that what you want to be able to do at 5x5 / 1x5 Deadlift? And are specific weights your only goals? And is the 75 KG your current weight or target weight?

    Based on what I've seen and guessing though, just do Starting Strength by itself. You don't have any overriding goals other than some target weights. In which case, do Starting Strength only and walk some until you are no longer a novice based on SS definitions.
  4. angry welshman is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2007 10:24am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhemsley
    Is that what you want to be able to do at 5x5 / 1x5 Deadlift? And are specific weights your only goals? And is the 75 KG your current weight or target weight?

    Yes, for those sets and reps.
    Target weight.
  5. Carrera26 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2007 12:13pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You have specific Maximal Strength goals, but those only have a basic application to actual Martial Arts. Right now you're training for Powerlifting and not neccesarily combat sports at all. Where is the Explosive (Power Clean is Explosive, but only 1 mentioned), Speed, Core, and Endurance training? Most MA attributes stem from these, and not Maximal strength, which is all you seem to be focussed on right now. Stop me if I am off, as I have not read Rippetoe's book, but this doesn't seem all that applicable to MA besides giving you a good base of strength.

    Don't get me wrong, that's very important, but honestly it's a lot less important than the other attributes. Without the Conditioning, you won't have the ability to repeatedly use that strength for very long, and will quickly lose your ability to perform at a high skill level. Fatigue has a HUGE effect on your ability to display correct form and skill. You need to train your body to resist fatigue for as long as possible, and to perform while fatigued, which is only possible through Conditioning.

    Think about the movements you make. How many of them are like the lifts you are doing? Do you make relatively slow, max effort movements without engaging your Core? A punch, for instance, is about 39% legs, 40% core, and only 20% arm, and none of that power is generated in a slow, max effort way either.

    Explosive and Speed strength have entirely different neural paths and training needs. Max strength does NOT neccesarily translate.

    I would cut way back on strength-specific days and try more holistic training. Conditioning, by the way, does not just mean cardio. It means training the muscles to display the kind of power you need over and over. For a WHOLE lot of info on all of this, visit;

    www.rosstraining.com

    For a great Conditioning sample, with video, check out;

    http://www.rosstraining.com/articles...pacity101.html
    Last edited by Carrera26; 12/28/2007 12:15pm at .
  6. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2007 1:28pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Carrera26
    You have specific Maximal Strength goals, but those only have a basic application to actual Martial Arts. Right now you're training for Powerlifting and not neccesarily combat sports at all. Where is the Explosive (Power Clean is Explosive, but only 1 mentioned), Speed, Core, and Endurance training? Most MA attributes stem from these, and not Maximal strength, which is all you seem to be focussed on right now. Stop me if I am off, as I have not read Rippetoe's book, but this doesn't seem all that applicable to MA besides giving you a good base of strength.
    Starting Strengths purpose is to teach the core compound lifts, then use those to carry a novice lifter to what is called the intermediate stage, which is where sport specific training occurs.

    The idea is to just give a good base of strength, since until that happens, general weightlifting will improve performance more than attempting to training explosively without good base strength. Core strength will develop acceptably enough with just Squats, Power Cleans, Deadlifts and Presses in most cases. Basically, it is designed just to create a good base of strength, exactly as you said. So you aren't off per se, you just don't have the full picture without reading the text.

    The novice stage under the program will take about 3 - 9 months to get through. Intermediate stage is reached once easy big gains tail off using the SS program.

    I agree that the program probably could use the addition of some cardio work after the first month, but one of the biggest problems with most people is the inability to stick to one program. For most people, if they just get strong first with a simple program like Starting Strength with minimal changes or additions, they are better off than trying to get fancy fast.
  7. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2007 1:54pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by angry welshman
    Yes, for those sets and reps.
    Target weight.
    Once again, what is the goal. Just those numbers - or just strong in general, or something more. I'm less interested in numbers than a general feel for what you really want. In other words, how about something qualitative, not quantitative. Throwing numbers out doesn't really do anything for you without something to relate it to. Quantities serve a purpose, qualities are purpose. If you don't have one, you aren't ready to do anything but screw around in the weight room, which is only moderately better waste of time than watching reruns.

    As far as what little you've been willing to offer, truth be told, at 18 if you can get that target body weight (which you may or may not be able to do easily depending on genetics), the lift weights are proportionally low for a dedicated lifter. That's not to say they are bad goals - if you can't do them now they are certainly vaild in the short term. However, what you have proportional to desired bodyweight to lift in a 5x5 / 1x5 is as follows

    Weight: 75 kg
    Press: 47.5 kg - 63% BW
    Bench: 70 kg - 93% BW
    Squat: 92.5 kg - 123% BW
    Deadlift: 115 kg - 156% BW
    Power clean: 67.5 kg - 90% BW

    Those goals, provided you can get to 75 KG (for some people, putting one weight and by extension muscle mass is really hard to do), should be realatively easy to hit within the 3 - 9 month time frame of Starting Strength at your age. Those aren't bad numbers in themselves, but they aren't goals that are going to be difficult enough to motivate you enough to get the most out of your program.

    That's why you need to actual indicate what your goal is so I can tell you whether I think you might need to supplement SS with some cardio. Right now, I don't think you do since all you want to do is gain weight and lift more weight - which is a great goal and fine goal in and of itself. But if that's the goal only, cardio isn't going to help you at all, and should be skipped until you reach the Intermediate level or get closer to starting BJJ, when good cardio is all that and a bad of chips.

    On a related note, if you won't answer the question directly about goals, which I've asked three times directly now, I'm going to assume you care less about this than I do. Since I have a program and know how to use it, caring more about this than the person I'm helping is a terrible waste of my time. Everyone in this forum is happy to help, until its clear the help isn't appreciated.
  8. angry welshman is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2007 4:05pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm going for the strength standards for a 165lb novice lifter as outlined in the book. Specific, quantitative goals. If I reach them before the big gains tail off, I'll go for the novice lifter weights for a 181lb lifter, again as outlined in the book. Direct answer now? Would you suggest I go for longer-term goals? If so, then it'd be as follows:

    Bodyweight: 90kg
    Press: 77.5kg
    Bench: 132.5kg
    Squat: 175kg
    Deadlift: 207.5kg
    Clean: 126.75kg

    As far as cardio, I want to have the gas to go a full 15-20 minutes in an MMA bout.
  9. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2007 4:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: ZHOO ZHITSU

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Carrera26
    Right now you're training for Powerlifting and not neccesarily combat sports at all.
    No, he's training for maximal strength, which if he can't currently reach the goals he has outlined, is exactly what he needs to be training for, because his strength levels are pretty low.

    Where is the Explosive (Power Clean is Explosive, but only 1 mentioned), Speed, Core, and Endurance training?
    Specific explosiveness training for lower body is almost worthless if your maximal squat is lower than 1.5 bodyweight, specific explosiveness training for upper body is unnecessary for almost any sport, speed work and endurance work are best worked in an SPP context rather than a general, and Core work is included in Starting Strength, which you should know if you've read it, and if you haven't you shouldn't be commenting on it.

    Stop me if I am off,
    You're off.

    as I have not read Rippetoe's book,
    See above.

    but this doesn't seem all that applicable to MA besides giving you a good base of strength.
    A good base of strength is absolutely applicable for MA, and if you don't already have one you should be concentrating on developing one before you start focusing on specific MA applications, because explosiveness and endurance is limited by your maximal strength to begin with, regardless of how much you work on them separately.

    Don't get me wrong, that's very important, but honestly it's a lot less important than the other attributes. Without the Conditioning, you won't have the ability to repeatedly use that strength for very long, and will quickly lose your ability to perform at a high skill level.
    Conditioning falls into two areas, cardio endurance and muscular endurance. Cardio endurance is worked separately from weights, and if he's not going to be doing BJJ for 12 months there's ample time to do so. Muscular endurance is, again, best worked in a SPP context, with the specific movements of the sport rather than general weight movements.

    Think about the movements you make. How many of them are like the lifts you are doing? Do you make relatively slow, max effort movements without engaging your Core? A punch, for instance, is about 39% legs, 40% core, and only 20% arm, and none of that power is generated in a slow, max effort way either.
    If you think Squats, Deadlifts, and Presses don't engage your core, you're a moron.

    Explosive and Speed strength have entirely different neural paths and training needs. Max strength does NOT neccesarily translate.
    Explosive and speed strength are a percentage of maximal strength, and if your maximal strength is weak, they will be weak, even if you train them specifically.

    Your advice isn't terrible for an intermediate lifter/athlete, but for someone whose overall muscular strength is as low as AW's, he needs to develop a higher level of base strength before any of your advice is applicable.
    Undisputed KING OF ASSHOLES.
  10. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2007 7:19pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by angry welshman
    I'm going for the strength standards for a 165lb novice lifter as outlined in the book. Specific, quantitative goals. If I reach them before the big gains tail off, I'll go for the novice lifter weights for a 181lb lifter, again as outlined in the book. Direct answer now? Would you suggest I go for longer-term goals? If so, then it'd be as follows:

    Bodyweight: 90kg
    Press: 77.5kg
    Bench: 132.5kg
    Squat: 175kg
    Deadlift: 207.5kg
    Clean: 126.75kg

    As far as cardio, I want to have the gas to go a full 15-20 minutes in an MMA bout.
    Thanks for clearing it up. Helps alot. Knowing you want to do an actual MMA is a good enough long term goal for me to know what you generally need (keep in mind, no one here is a doctor - talk to one first so you can't successfully sue us).

    Qualitatively, you just want to get bigger and stronger in the short term. Then get bigger and stronger in the intermediate term. Then use that to do MMA long term. Your numbers, the quantitative component, progress toward where they need to be. They were a little low at the first set - but since you are planning on going to the above they are tracking right toward where you want to be, so don't change them - you are being very realistic overall. The above is an impressive but doable 5x5.

    Here is what I would do, considering you have a weight gain component you want to reach that will probably impose the biggest barrier to success, since strength is partially a function of mass.

    Do Starting Strength as prescribed without any cardio until you reach the Intermediate phase. No changes, no auxillary. Cardio stuff, and particularily long duration cardio, drops protein synthesis rates, and induces the creation of slow twitch muscle fibers preferentially to fast twitch. Both are counterproductive to your goals. Good cardio is certainly necessary, but it will be easier to get strong first, then build a gas tank if you are undersized - its highly likely that is what your body is genetically inclined to do. In other words, you are going to swim upstream a little - don't make it harder than it already is. The cardio part is going to be easy enough later to ignore now.

    Instead of cardio, spend the time you would spend on Cardio on doing Yoga DVD's (I can recommend a few) or stretching DVD's. Strength and flexibility are complementry. Lifting will briefly increase flexibity by itself - but then you'll tighten up as you get stronger UNLESS you work on flexibility too, particularily with Startign Strength because there is a high Push to Pull ratio in the excercises.

    I prefer Yoga stuff - I guess its the inner hippie stuff in me, and there is a balance and breathing component more so than standard stretching. Keep it simple - the beginner stuff. If there is a good instructor, go to them. If it looks like you can't do a pose - guess what? Find the beginner version instead. The advantage to the DVD's over books is this already accounted for since they are more targeted to newbies than books, which tend to be more all inclusive. Alternatively, just get the book by Eddie Bravo on stretching. Flexibility is as important as strength and cardio in BJJ, and it takes longer than either for most people to develop.

    One key on the flexibility work is do not do it pre-lifting beyond a little dynamic streching - which isn't really needed if you do a thorough warm up as perscribed in Starting Strength. Its counter productive for both activities. Do it either post lifting, or at an entirely seperate time. Also, break up flexibility work as much as manageable throughout the day. Two session of 20 minutes is better than one for 40 minutes. Two for 40 minutes is better than two for 20 minutes. You can overtraining from flexibility work as well, so don't let it get above 80 to 90 minutes a day, and skip a session or two if you feel kind of spongy (you'll understand if you are consistent with a routine for a few months unless you are stiff as a board naturally like me). For the first month, keep it to two 20 minutes sessions max - then add as you feel like you can and have the time to.

    Long term if you want to do BJJ, two 20 minute sessions a day is the minimum. If you aren't working out first thing in the morning, the absolute ideal time is to hit the floor to stretch is after taking a piss when you first wake up.

    Don't design your own flexibility program. You can't do it better, you will probably do it worse, you may create long term imbalances, and you might hurt yourself. Don't screw with the order if one is given - its the same as designing your own particularily with Yoga. I've learned in life its better to spend time find the experts for most things and following them than becomming the expert for everything.

    Also, some people like to stretch while watching TV. I don't like to do this for the same reason I don't like watching TV during cardio at the gym. I end just doing both half ass. But its better than nothing, if only marginally so if thats the only way you can get motivated to do it.

    Once you get to the intermediate level, you'll be about 3 - 9 Months away from BJJ (my guess is closer to 3 - you should get a long time improving strength with you're size /age/gender unless you are a really hard gainer). At that point, you'll probably have a really good feel for your body and can transition to another program that includes Cardio, Agility and more pulling work than Starting Strength. If you are strong and flexible, you'll build up a good gas tank without much trouble since you are young.

    Good luck, if you have any other questions or comments, let us know. Keep in mind, consistency is more important than intensity. The second is a function of the first.
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