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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 12:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Really, everytime I see that pic, my balls retract up to my esophagus in horror.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 12:42pm


     Style: *********

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As someone who trains in and has used eye gouges, they are not fight enders. They simply create distance. A well sunk RNC is a fight ender.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 12:54pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by whisper
    ..yeah.

    There's a difference between missing a bat for a basketball and deliberately pushing your fingers into someone's eyes. You can tell by his body and wrist that the motion was downwards, rather than forwards. Pushing your fingers into someone's eye will hurt. I can't really see how that could be debated, but there we go.
    Hurt=/=Fight Ender as many Dim Mak and the deadly will tell you. Your argument is what they fall back to, that is why it is debated.

    Most smart people aren't going to let you dig your finger in the eye as many moves/movies will show you. Better yet, many bullshido instructors will tell you.

    Yes, it hurts no one is debating that at all. What we encounter here is TMA (insert Art) can't defeat MMA because eye gouges and bites aren't allowed.

    The sport argument.
  4. markcos262 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 1:01pm


     Style: bujinkan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I couldn't find this image before and admittedly it's a little hard to see in this pic of Chasity Melvin thankfully no permanent damage.

    Here's the associated story
  5. whisper is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 1:07pm


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake
    Hurt=/=Fight Ender as many Dim Mak and the deadly will tell you. Your argument is what they fall back to, that is why it is debated.

    Most smart people aren't going to let you dig your finger in the eye as many moves/movies will show you. Better yet, many bullshido instructors will tell you.

    Yes, it hurts no one is debating that at all. What we encounter here is TMA (insert Art) can't defeat MMA because eye gouges and bites aren't allowed.

    The sport argument.

    Most people won't let you, but if you're sitting on their chest there's not a lot they can do about it if you grab their head and stick your thumbs in their eyes. (not a TA eye gouge, but an eye gouge nonetheless)

    I'm not arguing that x can defeat y, but a properly done eye gouge can permanently disable. I'd call that a fight ender, like having a broken arm. You could continue fighting, but at that point it's not really your first priority anymore so much as seeing a doctor.

    Tangentially, isn't Dim Mak the "my mighty pressure points kill with a touch!" MA? I thought that was bullshido in it's purest form.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 1:13pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    See this is why the debate goes on, sitting on your chest?

    This implies grappling and down and ground fighting. Which is funny because most people that advocate eye pokes and gouges are strikers. Hence why I specifically gave you a reason why it is debated.

    Nowhere did I say you.
    What we encounter here is TMA (insert Art) can't defeat MMA because eye gouges and bites aren't allowed.
    On this website, with this same debate, that surfaces every year, it is TMAers (Dim MAk the Deadly) that make the sport distinction (rules) the reason why their art works (bites, eye pokes, eye gouges) on the street not the ring.
  7. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 1:16pm


     Style: *********

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by whisper
    Most people won't let you, but if you're sitting on their chest there's not a lot they can do about it if you grab their head and stick your thumbs in their eyes. (not a TA eye gouge, but an eye gouge nonetheless)

    I'm not arguing that x can defeat y, but a properly done eye gouge can permanently disable. I'd call that a fight ender, like having a broken arm. You could continue fighting, but at that point it's not really your first priority anymore so much as seeing a doctor.

    Tangentially, isn't Dim Mak the "my mighty pressure points kill with a touch!" MA? I thought that was bullshido in it's purest form.
    Lets be straight. We are talking fight enders that won't lead to lengthy jail stays, and outragiously large lawsuits. If you actually have a person pinned to the point that they cannot move away from or push your arms away from an eye gouge, you have stepped outside the bounds of reasonable restraint and entered assualt in the first.

    Even in the US in those states where fistfighting and barfights are legal, this will land you in jail at the least.

    Effectively used in SD biting and eyegouges work better for inflicting psychological damage and creating momentary space. End of story. Granted technically if I had a person properly pinned I could use my teeth to open his juggular, but again at that point it is no longer SD and becomes assualt.
  8. whisper is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 1:55pm


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah, I see. I'm a newb to this website, so I don't know about the long-running arguments. I was looking at it from a street fight, self-defense perspective. Nevermind.
  9. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 5:58pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by whisper
    [ ... ] but a properly done eye gouge can permanently disable. I'd call that a fight ender, like having a broken arm.
    This is exactly the way in which most people get this wrong and right at the same time. Yes, an eye gouge IS an effective way to cause permanent damage to another human being, but it's simultaneously NOT an effective way to make them stop fighting [1]. This combination of properties makes it one of the stupidest attacks possible.

    [1] The classic case is, as always, Yuki Nakai, who lost sight in one eye after being gouged in the ring, but still went on to defeat that opponent, defeat his next opponent, and fight Rickson Gracie for 6:22 before yielding to an RNC. This was in a sport, rather then life or death, context.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 6:06pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To add to Jack's point. It is a stupid attack to base your SD art around. Dirty fighting exists and can maim people. No one (most people) here will tell you different. It becomes a stupid argument when that is the only technique (excuse) you can use to get out of a SD situation.

    When I hear the eye gouge argument it surfaces during MMA, Boxing, BJJ, wrestling, based events.

    It usually goes I will poke them in the eye before the get mount. We have an example of an alleged southern mantis master getting his finger bit while, trying the eye poke/gouge to get out of a GnP situation.

    Which I still think is the funniest thing to Happen on bullshido this year.
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