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  1. tyciol is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2007 9:55pm


     Style: Tae Kwon-Do, Fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So besides ad hominem do you have anything to add to the review?

    Going back to the original topic of the thread, the corner barbell press actually is a good movement. Jumping on that other movement is a bit immature I guess, it may be more suited for other areas. It looks interesting and probably provides a different resistance curve than other movements. The main concern is how much the resistance levels off as the bar becomes more vertical, so you have to keep back so it won't get that way, and it probably focused more on the stretched position.

    Another movement done with the barbell in the corner of a wall is the russian twist, which is also pretty interesting. Tsatsouline hypes it in PTTP, or maybe it was bulletproof abs or something. You can see how the obliques are recruited in rotating and decelerating the bar. That being said I'd find it hard to avoid using the arms too much rather than using the coreand just keeping them as attachments. It doesn't seem like it'd be as straightforward as with deadlifting.
  2. andrewa is online now

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    Posted On:
    12/26/2007 10:20pm


     Style: Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You seemed like a forum junkie to me who was just posting things everywhere he could find. I do admit that your second post where you actually describe the problems with the lift is intelligent so I'll eat my words and say you seem to know what you're talking about on this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by tyciol
    NO, it seriously isn't. It's an illusion. There's no pulling at all until you're lat-pulling your entire bodyweight (behind your neck) and even then, only whatever's anchoring your feet counts, so you may as well just stand on one leg and lift that way and save your shoulders. Seeing as how it's intended to be a leg exercise after all.

    Even then, reverse squatting is NOT the equivilent of a leg curl. It's more prone to become about hip flexion, moreso than squatting becomes about hip extension even.
  3. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/27/2007 10:28am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas
    I dunno, the reverse squat looks like a nifty way to train how to "pull" yourself down into a squat rather than just relenting to the weight. I just don't know if I would train it as a very intense movement.
    I actually tried out of curiosity, and to be honest, I couldn't feel a thing. My g/f tried also, and we tried different set ups of the bar, positions, loads, before working out, after working out, and nada.

    I could not find for the life of me the usefullness of it beyond being a hip flexor exercise. I could not find a way to engage my hamstrings at all. I'll give it the benefit of the doubt in that maybe, just maybe, I don't know how to activate my hamstrings for the 'pull down', but I doubt it.

    The article claims that this is the closed-chain equivalent of a leg curl, but that's not so. Better, truer (sp) closed-chain alternatives are glute-ham raises or hamstring raises.

    * Better yet, a very deep reverse lunge is a better, closed-chain equivalent to a single-leg leg curl. All you have to do is go much, much deeper than in this example, almost like a kneeling hip flexor stretch (with the difference that you have your rear foot with the ball and toes in contact with the floor).

    From that position, you propel yourself forward by curling your forward hamstrings. You need to have good shoes and a proper, non-slippery surface to do so (and you should not be suffering from turf-toe btw.)

    Similarly, sumo squats/deadlifts with the feet pointing outwards as much as safely possible are closed-chain equivalents (at least the top 30% of the movement.) The concentration is on curling the hamstring, not on using the quadriceps. Since the feet are not mobile (which makes the whole thing a closed-chain exercise), the leg has no option but to straight up and extend the knee. Sounds counter-intuitive but you extend the knee by using its flexors (the hamstrings) with the feet anchored to the ground.




    * Obviously, you cannot use the same weights in these exercises as you would in a regular reverse lunge.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  4. andrewa is online now

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2007 12:13pm


     Style: Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After the article was published there was some discussion of the reverse squat with Christian T.
    http://www.t-nation.com/tmagnum/read...24097&pageNo=1

    sivanpunk wrote:
    Hey CT, i was stoked to see the reverse squat using cables, because i posted sumthing similar about a year ago and got no response to it :P

    [Christian talking here]
    I first used this exercise when I was 20 years old and training for olympic lifting. I was self taught and my biggest technical was going down under the bar fast enough in the clean (you catch the clean in a full squat, the faster you go down, the lower you have to pull the bar). I used the reverse squat to strengthen the muscles that would actively help me squat down under the bar with more speed.

    I also think that it is a very good preventive/prehab exercise

    sivanpunk wrote:
    now, i also do good mornings using the the rope, so i figured i would get your opinion on that excercise and how that could be analyzed in a similar manner to the reverse squat?

    cheers to the great work Thibs!!!

    [Christian talking here]
    You mean using a low pulley? I use that movement a lot, but mostly as a romanian or stiff-leg deadlift instead of a goodmorning, same principle though.
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/27/2007 1:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Funny. My g/f and I actually ended up playing around with the rope doing something like a reverse romanian. I would have to see a video or a well-written explanation on the reverse squat - I am baffled as of how it hits the hamstrings.

    If it indeed does what it's being claimed, I am missing something fundamental in the proper technique.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2007 2:55pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have to chime in on the quackery chorus on this excerise. I have to say this is the dumbest excercise I've ever seen suggested by someone who seems to otherwise know what they are doing - generally I like most of Thibaudeau's stuff, and the other excercise look pretty good or from experience are good.

    I'm further baffled by this pointer for the excercise. He states:

    "The key point is to avoid using your own body weight to lower the weight."

    How one avoids lowering to the ground without using body weight is beyond me. Sure, I can slowly lower myself, but at no point have I avoided using body weight - I've just engaged my lower body and core enough to slow my descent to prevent collapsing. The laws of physics prohibit me from moving toward the ground without using whatever body weight is displaced by the lat pulldown machine. I can influence the process by varying resistance, but what he is suggesting is that the hamstrings can be used to pull the weight down instead of letting gravity come into play on the rest of the body. Give me a break. Its not possible to seperate the two - which is why Teh El Macho couldn't make this thing work.

    Also, even if you could do it via some bodybuilding kung fu I'm not familiar with - I don't see where its that useful even as an assistance excercise. I can't think of a single time in my life I've needed to use my legs to pull downward instead of using my legs and weigth to lower myself. Maybe there is some Bond moive where Connery had to escape a clever trap by pulling himself down in zero G's using brute force to overcome some magnetic pulling up on his shoulders that is being simulated here. Otherwise - what are the hamstrings getting from this that a long list of other excercise that aren't so complicated and strange dont' provide.

    Even a preacher curl is more functional than this thing. At least no attempt to alter the fundamental forces of the space-time continuum is required to perform one. You just need largely useless machine and time to waste in the gym being unproductive.
  7. tyciol is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2007 11:30pm


     Style: Tae Kwon-Do, Fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewa
    You seemed like a forum junkie to me who was just posting things everywhere he could find.
    This is correct, but the timing is pretty spaced out. I posted a thing on it like half a year ago and came back time to time because sometimes things just bug you. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=2700701
    Quote Originally Posted by andrewa
    I do admit that your second post where you actually describe the problems with the lift is intelligent so I'll eat my words and say you seem to know what you're talking about on this issue.
    Thanks, I respect you now. I probably already would if I visited here more often like I should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    I could not find for the life of me the usefullness of it beyond being a hip flexor exercise. I could not find a way to engage my hamstrings at all.
    Did you manage to feel it in your hip flexors more than you would feel them normally during a squat? It still doesn't look like it would put any resistance against them either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Better yet, a very deep reverse lunge is a better, closed-chain equivalent to a single-leg leg curl.
    That seems pretty interesting, never thought of it that way. If you have to 'pull' yourself forward and off the ground, you can sort of see how that would pressure it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Similarly, sumo squats/deadlifts with the feet pointing outwards as much as safely possible are closed-chain equivalents (at least the top 30% of the movement.) The concentration is on curling the hamstring, not on using the quadriceps. Since the feet are not mobile (which makes the whole thing a closed-chain exercise), the leg has no option but to straight up and extend the knee. Sounds counter-intuitive but you extend the knee by using its flexors (the hamstrings) with the feet anchored to the ground.
    This is really confusing to think about, probably something you have to try out a lot to get. It's that whole weird way the biaxial nature of the hams work in leg extension.

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewa
    After the article was published there was some discussion of the reverse squat with Christian T.
    http://www.t-nation.com/tmagnum/read...24097&pageNo=1

    [Christian talking here]
    I first used this exercise when I was 20 years old and training for olympic lifting. I was self taught and my biggest technical was going down under the bar fast enough in the clean (you catch the clean in a full squat, the faster you go down, the lower you have to pull the bar). I used the reverse squat to strengthen the muscles that would actively help me squat down under the bar with more speed.
    I think the purpose he was using them for makes sense. Using the bar would deload the muscles so you could relax them easier and learn to drop. When they're deloaded you'd be able to engage the leg flexors better to flex the leg since there's no reciprocal inhibition. It would be different from training it hanging from a bar since when you flex your legs hanging from a bar, you don't get the dropping sensation in your vision or ears or anything. It's probably a really subtle motor adaptation. So he has really good instinct for what helps him train, but is probably clinging to a decade(s?)-old explanation for why it helped him. It didn't strengthen the leg flexors, it just made it easier to engage them to drop rapidly towards the ground for his speed to jump under a bar for olympic lifts. Knowing the context from this response (I don't remember seeing it) makes this matter a lot less. It's just the tendency to want to apply olympic lifting tricks to bodybuilding which is generally cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Funny. My g/f and I actually ended up playing around with the rope doing something like a reverse romanian. I would have to see a video or a well-written explanation on the reverse squat - I am baffled as of how it hits the hamstrings.

    If it indeed does what it's being claimed, I am missing something fundamental in the proper technique.
    In a romanian equivilent, you'd figure his focus would be on hip flexors rather than hams since the knees don't even flex in a romanian deadlift. Since your torso goes parallel in deadlifts (compared to squat) I'd think that would work your abs pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jhemsley
    I don't see where its that useful even as an assistance excercise. I can't think of a single time in my life I've needed to use my legs to pull downward instead of using my legs and weigth to lower myself. Maybe there is some Bond moive where Connery had to escape a clever trap by pulling himself down in zero G's using brute force to overcome some magnetic pulling up on his shoulders that is being simulated here. Otherwise - what are the hamstrings getting from this that a long list of other excercise that aren't so complicated and strange dont' provide.
    Well, if say, he were to be detached from his space ship and be lost in space forever and be starved to death, and let's say that some guy was pulling on his arms to get him off the ship... yeah.

    Or if you were Spider-Man trying to keep the Goblin's rocket glider from flying off, since your bodyweight wouldn't be enough to hold him down you could use your adhesion power to stick to the ground rather than to a wall or ceiling.

    Or, if you were hanging upside down from a ceiling and helping to pull someone else off the ground. But then, you're hanging upside down so it makes more sense to just use the gravity boots anyway since it's more specific.
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