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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/22/2007 8:59am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    namaste, what exactly in in your three-day workout splits??? You mentioned bodyparts, but no specific exercises.

    Also, what's your age and your height? These can be factors.

    I think you have been given some good advice on nutrition; that should give you something to go back to the drawing board. Rule of thumbs would include:

    1. never miss breakfast
    2. never miss dinner/post-workout meal
    3. don't make your last meal a big one (should be small, lean, protein-rich, with green, soluble fibers such as brocolli.)
    4. take your multivitamins
    5. take 500mg to 1,000mg of vitamin C one to two hours before any workout, religiously.
    6. consider supplementation with glutamine and BCAAs (this is specially true if you are trying to gain size.)

    Last but not least, if your workout doesn't rotate around squats and deadlifts, chances are you won't gain size at all.

    Oh, btw, do you do cardio? If so, you may want to drop it for a while.

    If not, here is something counterintuitive. Include an intense 40+ minute cardio workout once a week (and perhaps an additional mild, short cardio workout on another day). This is in addition to your lifting. Do this for a month and see what happens.

    If you are taking your multivitamins and eating right, the additional cardio should make you extremelly hungry. You'll be eating like a bastard hybrid of a pig and a horse.

    If you are lifting properly on your three-day split, you should see some quick dividends. The thing about split-days is that people think every single off-day you do nothing. And that's wrong. Use some of your off-days for moderate cardio and things like stretching, yoga or shoulder-rehab.

    For size and strenght gains, active recovery >>>>>> not doing ****.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. heyguy is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/22/2007 12:20pm


     Style: various cma's

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Raining_Blood
    SunTzu, I haven't really read any infomation about fats post workout so this is just my opinion. I can't see any harm in taking small amounts of fat post workout and you mention that you feel that they help so why not. Just make sure as previously mentioned they are the right type of fats. Also most post workout shakes contain moderate amounts of fat. Basically if you feel its working keep doing it.

    Some of the essential fatty acids are believed to be anti inflamatory in nature so this could contribute to your feeling of reduced DOMS.

    heyguy, milk is a awesome food, probably the best around but isnt really suited for immediate post workout consumption. Post workout you want to turn your body from a catabolic state to an anabolic state as quickly as possible. The proteins found in milk are not digested that quickly and it has relatively slow release carbohydrates. The same argument holds for natural peanut butter. Both will have some positive gains but there are better options.
    Well I never said pb after workouts.
    And there have been plenty of studies confirming this method works along with lifters that stand by it. I've had some drastic gains drinking milk after workouts. It may not be the scientifically "perfect" food, but it may be worth a shot for this guy.
  3. Raining_Blood is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/22/2007 9:14pm


     Style: Wrestling, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by heyguy
    Well I never said pb after workouts.
    And there have been plenty of studies confirming this method works along with lifters that stand by it. I've had some drastic gains drinking milk after workouts. It may not be the scientifically "perfect" food, but it may be worth a shot for this guy.
    Most studies doen in the fitness industry are on untrained athletes so anything will work. Not saying this is the case here because I have never read any studies about this but it is something to think about. One of the most popular studies that is used to say chocolate milk is a very good post workout drink was actually a study done to compare the effects of gatorade and chocolate milk post workout. Neither is ideal but milk was the lesser of the evils.

    I am not saying milk is bad. I actually drink copious amounts of milk when im trying to put on weight however I dont have it post workout. Your goals immediately post workout should be to create an insulin spike which allows the protein to bind to the insulin and get into the muscle quicker.

    You cited anacedotal evidence so I shall use some aswell. Back when I was new into lifting I started to drink a 600ml bottle of chocolate milk after every workout. The only results I got was increased body fat and slower muscle and strength gains.
  4. heyguy is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 12:20am


     Style: various cma's

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Raining_Blood
    Most studies doen in the fitness industry are on untrained athletes so anything will work. Not saying this is the case here because I have never read any studies about this but it is something to think about. One of the most popular studies that is used to say chocolate milk is a very good post workout drink was actually a study done to compare the effects of gatorade and chocolate milk post workout. Neither is ideal but milk was the lesser of the evils.

    I am not saying milk is bad. I actually drink copious amounts of milk when im trying to put on weight however I dont have it post workout. Your goals immediately post workout should be to create an insulin spike which allows the protein to bind to the insulin and get into the muscle quicker.

    You cited anacedotal evidence so I shall use some aswell. Back when I was new into lifting I started to drink a 600ml bottle of chocolate milk after every workout. The only results I got was increased body fat and slower muscle and strength gains.
    I won't argue with the science you present, but I don't think this guy should not at least give it a try because it made you questionably fat(joke haha) And I don't think he is a trained athlete. It's not in his diet at all if you read his post, so just adding it would obviously benefit him at this point.
    Besides, drinking a whey protein and dextrose liquid shake gets sickening. Give the guy a whole food alternative for post workout option
  5. heyguy is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 12:46am


     Style: various cma's

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/paul1.htm

    something to consider at the least.
  6. heyguy is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 12:50am


     Style: various cma's

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Raining_Blood
    Most studies doen in the fitness industry are on untrained athletes so anything will work.
    evidence?
  7. namaste is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 1:02am


     Style: BJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    namaste, what exactly in in your three-day workout splits??? You mentioned bodyparts, but no specific exercises.
    I pretty much just try and destroy the body parts on those days. For example:

    chest day there is bench, db bench, chest fly, chest press, lat pull, etc
    deadlift day there is deadlifts (obviously), squats, chinups, dips, row pull, some shoulder stuff
    arms day is drop set on bi's, numerous tri exercises, dips, rear delt, 45deg leg press

    there is more but i cant remember cos i have to eat and then go rasslin.



    Also, what's your age and your height? These can be factors.
    I'm 23 at 184cm. BF is around 12%

    1. never miss breakfast
    2. never miss dinner/post-workout meal
    3. don't make your last meal a big one (should be small, lean, protein-rich, with green, soluble fibers such as brocolli.)
    4. take your multivitamins
    5. take 500mg to 1,000mg of vitamin C one to two hours before any workout, religiously.
    6. consider supplementation with glutamine and BCAAs (this is specially true if you are trying to gain size.)
    I never miss any meals (try and eat 6 times a day) but the only supps i'm taking is protein powder. I always used musashi and recently (2 days ago) switched to a brand called 'vital strength'. It has creatine in it, but I'm not too clued in on creatines actual purpose.

    Last but not least, if your workout doesn't rotate around squats and deadlifts, chances are you won't gain size at all.
    These are both in there. Although my deadlift is better than my squat. I go for 3x8 of each.

    Oh, btw, do you do cardio? If so, you may want to drop it for a while.
    My cardio is rasslin/mma two or three times a week, I also go for a 5km run with a stinkin hot girl each week.

    If you are lifting properly on your three-day split, you should see some quick dividends. The thing about split-days is that people think every single off-day you do nothing. And that's wrong. Use some of your off-days for moderate cardio and things like stretching, yoga or shoulder-rehab.
    I never really have an off day! Well thats a lie, saturday is my off day

    Monday is rasslin
    Tuesday is gym and 5km run
    Wednesday is either gym or mma
    Thursday is gym
    Friday is either gym or mma
    Saturday is drinking jager (hard work!)
    Sunday is gym and/or rasslin if I missed either during the week


    I'd like to thank everybody who bothered to reply in this thread. Really helpful stuff, thanks guys.
  8. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 1:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by heyguy
    evidence?
    Mark Rippetoe brings it up in his book "Practical Programming for Strength Training" I can go find the page if you're really curious.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  9. ironlurker is offline
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    How do Chameleon Circuit?

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 3:24pm


     Style: jkd

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by namaste
    I pretty much just try and destroy the body parts on those days. For example:

    chest day there is bench, db bench, chest fly, chest press, lat pull, etc
    deadlift day there is deadlifts (obviously), squats, chinups, dips, row pull, some shoulder stuff
    arms day is drop set on bi's, numerous tri exercises, dips, rear delt, 45deg leg press

    there is more but i cant remember cos i have to eat and then go rasslin.
    IMHO you might be doing too many exercises for each. Bench + db bench + chest fly + chest press? You said if I remember correctly three sets on each and a fourth light one to exhaustion. So thats 16 sets on 4 different exercises for one target in the chest case.
    I would pick either pick one or two and do a high volume-type program or cut down to three.
    Yeah the "science" changes every week :jerkit2yf and there's a lot of programs out there, but if you're doing wrestling on two other days + up to two more days of MMA I think trying to 'destroy' your chest/lats etc. through what you're doing now could hold you back.
    You could actually be overtrained or close to it hence the crappy feelings and stalling on your gains.

    Melk says he got a lot of gain from the Russian bear, for example

    Here is how the "Russian Bear" program works.

    Start off by doing a hard set of five on an exercise. Do not pick your five-rep max. Pick a weight that you could do six to seven times with good form and stop at five reps. Wait five minutes after the first set and do another set of five with 90% of the first set.


    After that set, wait 30-60 seconds and do a set of 5 with 80% off the first set. Keep doing sets of five with 80% off the first set and take one-minute breaks between each set. When you can no longer do five reps with good form, call it a day. This may happen after four sets or as much as fifteen. It really varies with the individual. Since you are not training to failure and are using relatively lightweights for most of the sets, you can do the "Russian Bear" program more often.
    For example, you could do it three times a week. Just take a day off between each workout. Unlike the GVT program, the "Russian Bear" program consists of full body workouts. Here is a sample "Russian Bear" program.
    • Monday
      • A-1: Military Press
        A-2: Pull-up
        B-1: Deadlift
      Wednesday
      • A-1: Bench Press
        A-2: Bent-over row
        B-1: Squat
      Friday
      • A-1: Military Press
        A-2: Pull-up
        B-1: Deadlift
    Link
    They killed JFK in '63, so what the **** you think they'll do to me?
  10. Greyfox is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/23/2007 8:12pm


     Style: Wing Chun; Modern Wushu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Couple of quick (and perhaps stupid questions):

    1. Why do you want to gain weight? Weight classes? Concerned about BMI/FFMI?
    2. What is the aim of your strength training? Maximal strength, power, hypertrophy (size gain) or strength endurance?

    ::EDIT:: Okay, took your stats and got BMI and FFMI from them - 23 and 20, respectively. Respectable figures, so pay no further attention to their existance. ::EDIT::

    ::EDIT:: By 'pay no further attention to their existance', I of course mean 'forget I ever brought them up'. My questions still stand, anyway. ::EDIT::
    Last edited by Greyfox; 12/23/2007 8:32pm at .
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