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  1. sheol1980 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 5:29pm


     Style: Fencing, Sword play, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Is MMA an appropriate litmus test? (a.ka. Oh Noes!! Street vs. Sport AGAIN??)

    After a while of reading Bullshido threads you get the sense that many people have the idea that the ultimate litmus test for any martial art is whether it has been shown effective in a MMA competition.

    Though I do agree that it is a sufficient condition for saying a martial art is effective (meaning if fighters have effectively used it in a MMA environment then it is effective), I think it is a mistake to assume it is a necessary condition (meaning if it is effective then it will be used with success in a MMA competition) for several reasons.

    First: Not all martial arts focus on the same things. Certainly a majority of martial arts are devoted to taking down a single opponent with your bare hands, IMHO it is a mistake to assume that is what every martial art should be teaching.

    Now tangentially I want to point out that I feel a person aught to learn all of the aspects of fighting, not just one particular aspect of fighting. However most martial arts focus on just a few elements. And certainly people on this forum don't tend to disparage a martial art for this (muay thai, BJJ).

    Now if you will all bear with me for a moment. Imagine there is a martial art (We'll call it r3@l-do) and the focus of this martial art is manipulating your environment. It teaches you how to successfully take advantage of uneven terrain, and to use any object as a weapon, that sort of thing. Naturally we all might be suspicious of this art, but clearly arguing that it's not found in the octagon doesn't hold water.

    Second: Not all martial arts are equally popular. So if d3@dly-foo is only known by 20 people, and BJJ is known by thousands, it would be unsurprising if: 1) you never saw it in a MMA fight, and 2) if it was in a MMA fight it lost.

    The reason of course that it would lose is that even if d3@dly-foo gave some advantage over BJJ, it would not compensate for the best of thousands being significantly better than the best of 20.

    So,
    Is there anyone here that really thinks MMA competition is an appropriate litmus test?

    and

    Can anyone think of a litmus test that we can actually use (not just whether people manage to survive in teh str33ts) that would work for martial arts across the board?
  2. bassai is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 5:35pm


     Style: shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It just boils down to the fact that mma covers all ranges and has a fairly broad ruleset allowing for fairly heavy contact , rather than no to minimum contact at a fixed range.
  3. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 5:45pm

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Reading comprehension needs to be taught more.

    While making fun of archaic traditions and pimped out gis is a norm here the main focus is the charletons and snake oil salesman. No touch knock outs and chi **** and false rank and representation is the main focus. Keep in mind that equal fun is poked at everyone and every style.

    Only one litmus test will ever matter. When you get attacked one day did the training you did actually help you. The fact that the majority of people will never get in a fight in their lives is the reason many do competition. The same % that do MMA want the ultimate competition they can do without totally risking their lives.

    Be happy with what you do if your so insecure about it then go do something else.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  4. sheol1980 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 5:51pm


     Style: Fencing, Sword play, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jkartigue
    Reading comprehension needs to be taught more.
    ?

    While making fun of archaic traditions and pimped out gis is a norm here the main focus is the charletons and snake oil salesman. No touch knock outs and chi **** and false rank and representation is the main focus. Keep in mind that equal fun is poked at everyone and every style.
    True, but there is plenty of other legitimate discussion about why YMAS.

    Only one litmus test will ever matter. When you get attacked one day did the training you did actually help you. The fact that the majority of people will never get in a fight in their lives is the reason many do competition. The same % that do MMA want the ultimate competition they can do without totally risking their lives.
    That's exactly the example I gave of an innapropriate litmus test.

    Be happy with what you do if your so insecure about it then go do something else.
    I didn't realize I came off that way. I'm not at all. I'm engaging in a theoretical discussion of what an appropriate litmus test is, and arguing that a litmus test that many seem to hold is innapropriate.
  5. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 5:54pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This will probably be moved to YMAS. Keep all rants in that subforum, this one is for investigations only.

    Quote Originally Posted by sheol1980
    First: Not all martial arts focus on the same things. Certainly a majority of martial arts are devoted to taking down a single opponent with your bare hands, IMHO it is a mistake to assume that is what every martial art should be teaching.
    Forget focus or whatever. It's simple. Martial arts = fighting. If you aren't getting fighting skills from what you're doing, it's not martial arts.

    Now tangentially I want to point out that I feel a person aught to learn all of the aspects of fighting, not just one particular aspect of fighting. However most martial arts focus on just a few elements. And certainly people on this forum don't tend to disparage a martial art for this (muay thai, BJJ).
    Yes, to be a good fighter, you must learn different ranges. The problem is that alot of crap out there insists they teach everything in one system. Generally this leads to things like crappling.

    Now if you will all bear with me for a moment. Imagine there is a martial art (We'll call it r3@l-do) and the focus of this martial art is manipulating your environment. It teaches you how to successfully take advantage of uneven terrain, and to use any object as a weapon, that sort of thing. Naturally we all might be suspicious of this art, but clearly arguing that it's not found in the octagon doesn't hold water.
    MMA represents a lost training mentality (at least here in the US) - that to learn fighting skills, you must apply them in practice. This subject has been done to death on this forum, but if you haven't, read Thorton's articles on aliveness.

    Thus, for your theoretical art, as long as they train those skills that you describe in a realistic setting with ample randomness and resistance, then it's fine. It just so happens for empty handed fighting, MMA is just that - it is the most realistic setting that the law will allow.

    Second: Not all martial arts are equally popular. So if d3@dly-foo is only known by 20 people, and BJJ is known by thousands, it would be unsurprising if: 1) you never saw it in a MMA fight, and 2) if it was in a MMA fight it lost.
    Fair enough, but if someone comes on here and says "I do XYZ system, I've used it successfully in a MMA match" and if we've never heard of XYZ - as long as the fight checks out, it's fine. It's not like the majority of us automatically go to "I've never heard of it, it must be crap."
  6. sheol1980 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 5:59pm


     Style: Fencing, Sword play, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    browser error, double post
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 5:59pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yippie!!! A dead horse!!! Let's beat the **** out of it :tard:
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. sheol1980 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 6:03pm


     Style: Fencing, Sword play, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    This will probably be moved to YMAS. Keep all rants in that subforum, this one is for investigations only.
    Apologies, it seems like it was a question of standards, and the forum labels are often confusing to me.
  9. sheol1980 is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 6:05pm


     Style: Fencing, Sword play, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Yippie!!! A dead horse!!! Let's beat the **** out of it :tard:
    Okay, so did a standard litmus test come out of the dead horse?

    Perhaps I should point out that I meant to place at least as much emphasis on the second question as the first.

    Is it just training with alivness? Wouldn't it be possible to have a totally piece of **** MA that is trained with aliveness?
  10. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 6:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are going to find the answer to your question if you use the goddam search function. It has been asked and answered in many different re-incarnations.

    Also, if a MA is trained with aliveness, it wouldn't be a piece of **** in the first place (which has also been debated ad nauseum).

    Sorry if it sounds harsh, it's just that seeing this debate coming again and again gets rather tiring.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 12/13/2007 6:17pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
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