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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2007 10:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^^^ What Emevas said.

    The other, greater and more fundamental difference between a bodybuilder and a strenght athlete (strongman/powerlifter/olympic lifter) is that the former participates in competitions that are subjective. A strenght athlete does not.

    A strengh athlete wins if he's the one that lifts the most to put it simply. A bodybuilder wins if whoever is in the judging panels feels like the bodybuilder in question fits his aesthetic criteria. If he's big, symetric, cut, defined, etc, etc, etc. The amount of bullshit that one sees in bodybuilding and fitness/figure competitions is ridiculous sometimes because of this.

    No matter how much work gets done to compete, a bodybuilder or figure/fitness competitor is at the judge's mercy. This is why a lot of competitors stop in their first or second try. The bull is just not worth it.

    A strenght athlete OTH, he wins or loses by performance alone and nothing more. That is, his accomplishments or deficiencies can be measured objectively.

    To each his own, but I think the later provides a lot more satisfaction, win or lose.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 12/12/2007 10:18pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. Lily is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2007 10:19pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: No longer training

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks guys, I didn't really pick up that distinction TEM. Helps my understanding.

    So common gym exercises like Deadlifts, Squats, Clean and Press, Bench Press etc. do they fall under the domain of a particular group or is it more how you do them (in terms of reps, weights, sets) that create the distinction?? Confusing.
  3. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2007 10:24pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Competition creates the distinction, not training. A powerlifter isn't a powerlifter until they powerlift, just like a strongman isn't a strongman until he competes in strongman, etc etc. There's also a lot of cross over between the iron sports.

    Regarding training though, there are better ways/training methodoligies to acheive certain goals in terms of reps, sets, assistance exercises, etc etc.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2007 10:33pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon
    Just a thought, but do you know the difference between Isometric and Plyometric exercises?
    Plyometrics are exercises that use explosive movements to increase muscle power for a particular activity, that is, to teach your muscles to produces the strongest contraction in the shortest amount of time. A certain level of fitness is required to engage in plyometrics.

    Jumping push up us perhaps the best known plyometric exercise. Other examples of plyometrics are:



    Isometrics involve contraction against an immovable object, or contraction with little to no movement. One good example is the isometric ab crunch. Either being sitted or standing, contract your abdominals as hard as possible without moving your torso.

    Isometrics are used for rehab or to get past sticky points. They are supposed to be used in conjunction with other exercises, btw. Ross Enamait puts a lot of emphasis in isometrics, and there is a good thread in t-nation that you should read if you want get an insight on how to use it for getting muscle mass, for example:

    http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459399

    Types of Isometric Training

    Before I tell you how to use isometrics to gain muscle, it's important that you understand the various types of isometric training. First we have two isometric regimens: overcoming isometrics and yielding isometrics. Understand that this doesnít mean you're combining a concentric (or eccentric) action along with the isometric action. The actual external outcome of the exercise is the same: there's no movement at all. However, the intent during the exercise changes:

    Overcoming Isometric: You're pushing or pulling against an immovable resistance (e.g. pushing against the pins in a rack). Thus there's no external movement but your intent is to move the resistance (even though thatís impossible).

    Yielding Isometric: You're holding a weight and your objective is to prevent it from going down. Once again there's no external movement; however, your intent is no longer to move the load but to prevent its movement.

    Itís important to understand that both techniques won't have the same effect; for one thing, the neural patterns used in both cases will be different. Overcoming-isometrics may have a bigger impact on concentric strength and yielding-isometrics on eccentric strength and muscle mass.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/12/2007 10:57pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lily
    Thanks guys, I didn't really pick up that distinction TEM. Helps my understanding.

    So common gym exercises like Deadlifts, Squats, Clean and Press, Bench Press etc. do they fall under the domain of a particular group or is it more how you do them (in terms of reps, weights, sets) that create the distinction?? Confusing.
    Again, what Emevas said :) Competition makes the distinction.

    BTW, I'm gonna use the term bodybuilding to denote bodybuilding proper as well as figure and fitness.

    There are exercises which are common to bodybuilders and strenght athletes - deadlifts, bench presses and squats, for example.

    And there are exercises that are only done by one but not the other. For example, clean and presses and other olympic exercises are rarely done by bodybuilders; in fact they may get in the way of their goals (which is to achieve a certain amount of mass and symmetry.)

    Bodybuilders spend more time doing isolation work (bicep curls, tricep extensions, leg curls, etc). Those exercises are important for them. Not so for a strenght athlete.

    I would say that female fitness and figure competitors are perhaps the closest in bodybuilding to being strenght athletes. Figure competitors are required to perform a gymnastic/acrobatic routine (and many of the competitors have a background in gymnastics.) Some fitness/figures competitors also participate in endurance sports such as the Women Tri Fitness, but not all.

    Male bodybuiders, OTH, they are stronger than the average person, but they are not the strongest, nor the most powerful pound by pound. It is purely an aesthetics activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily
    is it more how you do them (in terms of reps, weights, sets) that create the distinction?? Confusing.
    Yep, that's another main difference. This is a big-ass oversimplification, but more or less that's how it goes:

    Bodybuilders and figure/fitness competitors, they do it differently. For men, maximum size is obtained with a weight that allows you to do between 8 to 12 reps. For women that range seems to be between 12 to 15 (and no, women cannot get big like men, not unless they juice;)

    For strenght and power, you do your reps with a load that only allows you between 4 to 1, sometime 5 or 6. This is how powerlifters and strongmen operate. They go for maximum intensity with the lowest number of reps possible. They are looking to be the strongest possible.

    Now, this type of training not only hits the muscles, but the ligaments and the nervous system in ways not experienced with the training done by bodybuilders and fitness competitors.

    So basically, that's the difference.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 12/12/2007 11:10pm at .
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 8:29am


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very nice posts by Teh El Macho. I hope the OP appreciates it. Just to confirm, I know both types but that's 'cos of years of Circuit Training. I mean 12-15 years training up to 6 times a week (when my knee gave out during an explosive Starburst Burpee).

    As Emevas mentioned Glen Ross, it might help people to know that he was a Bodybuilder before he became a Strongman. Even allowing for his Bleached hair then and his Brown hair now, his physique emphasises the difference betwixt the BB-er and the Strongman.

    Cheers
  7. Dirty Rooster is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 12:37pm


     Style: Basic Self-Defence

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    For strenght and power, you do your reps with a load that only allows you between 4 to 1, sometime 5 or 6. This is how powerlifters and strongmen operate.
    Yeah, I operate like that too.
    Between four and seven reps ... per week.
    That way I get maximum strength without reducing my superior cider belly.
  8. alex is offline
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    STOP POSTING!

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    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 1:49pm

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     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    look up single set training, 6 reps once or twice a week of an exercise can actually work very well.
  9. Dirty Rooster is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2007 6:51am


     Style: Basic Self-Defence

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm looking it up now ... single ... sex ... training.
    Oh. Sweaty men in a gym, no wimmin. hmm.
    Single ... set ... training.

    OK, read some stuff.
    It looks like single set training isn't so good after the initial development past couch-potatoe, and that I'd better increase my dosage to three or four sets per muscle group. Dang. Terrible to be sensible.
    Last edited by Dirty Rooster; 12/14/2007 6:59am at .
  10. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2007 6:56am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread has been redeemed by Lily's questions, and the answers of Emevas and Teh El Capitalismo Rancho.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
    click here to order on Amazon

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