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  1. Bukow is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Flint, Michigan
    Posts
    244

    Posted On:
    12/13/2007 10:45pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387
    My point, again is that there is some type of coercion when someone has to sign a contract to pay for future lessons, in order to be allowed to pay for the lessons they use in the present.
    Where is the coercion? Who is being forced into this agreement? by your standards, isn't the owner of the gym also being "coerced" into teaching future lessons, in order to be allowed to teach lessons presently?
    El sueno de la razon produce monstruos.
  2. bhamtsd is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    71

    Posted On:
    12/14/2007 10:50am


     Style: Tang Soo Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A good contract should set boundaries for both parties. As consumers, we tend to focus on what the provider is getting. In a good contract, the consumer gets:

    1. Price protection - Rate won't increase during contract period or increases at preset rate. In my school, we recently moved to a larger facility. The owner couldn't increase rates on the contracted students even though the lease tripled.
    2. Quantity protection - You can take X number of classes per week for Y number of weeks per year. The owner can't decide in a few months that he is too busy and drops the number of classes per week and isn't going to teach in the summer.
    3. Escape clauses - If you move more than X miles away from the school, you are let out. If you are permanently injured or medically unable to train, you are let out. If you get injured or are temporarily unable to attend, you get a deferment.

    For a contract to be valid, you have to be a non-minor, mentally competent and not under duress/threat. You should have read the contract and entered into it honorably. With that being the case, why not just man (or woman) up and talk to the owner? If he doesn't let you out clean, maybe he will give you some kind of reduced payout. It would be cheaper for him than to wait for collections and you wouldn't have to worry about a credit report ding. If that doesn't work, you signed the contract as a man so take it like a man and pay your bills.
  3. Dsimon3387 is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    san francisco
    Posts
    3,079

    Posted On:
    12/14/2007 12:05pm

    Join us... or die
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bukow
    Where is the coercion? Who is being forced into this agreement? by your standards, isn't the owner of the gym also being "coerced" into teaching future lessons, in order to be allowed to teach lessons presently?
    The coercion is that you are being made to pay for lessons not yet recieved. Now there are conditions that make it a benefit to pay up front and if that is an option for you then it is different. If your payment of lessons for a year guarantees you aditional lessons, or that the price won't go up, etc then sure, you may decide that it is worth it for you to pay the extra money because of a benefit. Under these circumstances above it is an option for you to lock in a good rate, etc. But to be forced to pay yearly for monthly lessons imo is coercion all things beong equal. If you want people to pay for the year offer them an incentive and give them an option to buy lessons monthly.

    Being forced to pay for lessons monthly in yearly intervals, in order to train monthy is no benfitt to you whatsoever. Under these conditions you should be paying monthly for your lessons.

    Contracts often have options which make it a benefitt to pay up front for the consumer. For example, in some real estate markets I can rent with an option to buy a property. I can even, under some contracts, apply the rent money to the purchase price within the time frame of this option.

    I also have some sense of reference for my (apparently) need to overthrow the capitolist system haha. My son goes to fencing and pays monthly, we never even signed a contract (only waivers) and the fencing school is quite succesful. When we looked at Wally Cahill's Judo school, the fees were monthly as well. Frankly I have not seen any decent schools in this area (San fRancisco) that have long term contracts. So I don't think my critiscism is so revelutionary! Yes I used the term Duress in a non legal fashion, but you know the word does exist in and is used in common usage. And I had a succesful commercial studio and charged people monthly... actually I charged people by the lesson and I made enpugh money to pay for my MA degree, so it can be done!
  4. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    3,378

    Posted On:
    12/14/2007 12:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Read this....

    http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...article&id=269

    Also, Sam, I thought we had a thread Stickied somewhere for people to post up examples of shitty MA contracts?

    I can't find the thread anywhere, I thought it was in MABS.

    EDIT: Never mind Sam, Kagan pointed it out for me.

    Check out this thread as well for examples of shitty MA contracts and please forward or post your own in this thread or PM me or Sam with them if you want to remain anonymous.

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=53907
    Last edited by GoldenJonas; 12/14/2007 2:43pm at .
  5. catherine1973 is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    12

    Posted On:
    12/15/2007 8:47pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shindo Jinen Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by whitematt
    I'm not a lawyer, and I don't support contracts for MA schools, but I am curious as to whether this constitutes fraud?
    In a word, yes. In general, if you: (1) knowingly state that something is true in an effort to induce another to rely upon the statement to his/her detriment; (2) you know the statement is not true; and (3) the person relies upon the statement and is harmed, then you have committed fraud. The actual requirements for fraud will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction but the above is generally accurate.

    Catherine
  6. Sam Browning is offline

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    9,845

    Posted On:
    12/16/2007 12:06am

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Catherine are you a lawyer? My shark sense is tingling. *prepares to throw chicken in water as welcoming gift*
  7. catherine1973 is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    12

    Posted On:
    12/18/2007 10:55pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shindo Jinen Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja Claus
    Hi Catherine are you a lawyer? My shark sense is tingling. *prepares to throw chicken in water as welcoming gift*
    LOL. Guilty as charged.
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