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  1. #31
    Vargas's Avatar
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    Okay, I guess another paragraph from Renzo's new book, "Mastering Jujitsu" is in order. This part is from the Japanese history part in Chapter One:


    "If there is any martial art that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu most resembles, it is doubtless pre-1925 Judo, which today is seen only in the few Kosen Judo organizations still in existence. The only traditional style of Jujitsu that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has close links with is Fusen-ryu jujitsu, which was itself a direct forebearer of kosen judo. It appears, however, that Fusen-ryu jujitsu largely died out after being assimilated into judo. The similarities, then, between Kosen Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are far greater than those between traditional jujitsu and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu."


    There it is. I highly recommend reading the history part of "Mastering Jujitsu", it is a pretty concise guide to how JJJ, Judo and BJJ developed along their different paths.
    "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


    - George Plimpton
    "Shadow Box"

  2. #32
    Vargas's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, my best guess for who Kano used would be either Saigo or Tomishita and the style used was Fusen-ryu jujitsu. At the time, Mataemon Tanabe was probably the best ground-fighter in Japan, but not sure if he took part in the Kodokan challenge tournament of 1886.
    "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


    - George Plimpton
    "Shadow Box"

  3. #33

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    Vargas, not bad, it was Saigo.
    But I was informed his back ground was aiki-jujutsu ( Daito ryu?), I am not 100% on that.

  4. #34

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    That fact of the matter is:
    Any thechnique you can think of, I will show you an example of that technique in a martial art that is over 100 years old.
    Any "real" technique.
    Like an armbar or triangle from Kodakan Judo...?

    Also a cross punch, hook uppercut or jab? That would be from boxing and maybe Karate for the cross (reverse) punch?

    Also, importantly, it doesn't matter where it's from etc, it's if it "works". :)

    As for peoples impressions of TJJ, that is what we are here for, to educate the masses
    Most JJJ places don't have [EDIT] full contact [/EDIT] sparring is the main impression.

    Points for ANYONE who came name the guy that Kano used to show the superiority of JUDO over jujutsu.
    Can't find it in the book, it just says that numerous challenges were issued vs JJJ.

    Here's another quote from the book of No Holds Barred:

    "Jigoro Kano began jujutsu practice as a way to better his physical condition, he studied under numerous Jujutsu masters, but found many of the techniques were not applicable to real life...

    ...Kano's Judo soon became so popular that a rift between jujutsu schools culminated into a challenge in 1886. In the ensuing competition, Kano's students dominated the jujutsu practitioners, winning most of the matches. On July 24, 1905, 18 jujutsu masters joined Kano's ranks to follow his art. Jujutsu was dead, and Judo reaplced it with uniformity, honour and sport." - from No Holds Barred, Clyde Gentry III.

    Near the beggining of the Foreword he says:

    "...what was the practical use of of the martail art I was learning (jujutsu) if it didn't take into account the real?"

    ...After having said how he once threw a jujutsu opponent of his to the floor in sparring (with his minimal highschool and college wrestling experience) and having his jujutsu intructor tell him that it (the wrestling throw) wasn't allowed.
    Last edited by Blad3; 10/30/2003 5:18pm at .
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.

  5. #35

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  6. #36

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    Looks like an interesting article, I'll read it later. I hope they have photographs of the Judo people beating the Jujutsu people and visa versa (doubt it). :)

    got to go for now, talk to you all later.
    Last edited by Blad3; 10/30/2003 9:32am at .
    "Training = pain." - I said that.

    PizDoff when drunk: "I'm actually MOST pissed that my target for the evening got drink...then I gave her my Bullshido Canada hoodie like a gentleman because she was outside with not much on...did I mention she barfed twice when I got our jackets...steaming barf is kinda fascinating..." - PizDoff.

  7. #37

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    Good post Edge,
    It was Tenshin shinyo ryu jujutsu by the way.
    kano was very smart in using classical jujutsu guys in the competitions, and saying it was Judo just because they belonged to the Kodokan.

  8. #38
    Beatdown Richie's Avatar
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    ronin: just at what point does a practitioner who switches arts become a representative of the new art? I must admit I'm not at all an expert in the early history of judo, but it sounds reasonable that Kano would train people who had previous exposure to other JiuJitsu styles (what other background could they have had?)
    The question is, did they kick ass because Kano somehow attracted the top fighters to his team, or because the training methods he introduced gave them an edge? My money is on the second alternative.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)

  9. #39
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    Ronin next time try a HARDER question.

    Shiro"The secret Weapon" Saigo of Daito was obvious. :P

    Noted. But a book is a book...it doesn't necessarily have suffcient evidence to back itself up.
    *cough* bibliography *cough*

    The effectiveness of Gracie Jujutsu compared to "Judo" is vastly different.
    Hardly. BJJ or Judo is only as good as the pple using it.


    I love how pple do alot of their research on the Web, thats what it there for and PORN, but you really need to TALK to pple who have donethe actual leg work. For instance:

    dvanced students in judo also learn strikes that are borrowed from Sensei Funakoshi.
    WRONG WRONG WRONG.This is what I am talking about. Judo has it OWN atemi waza which KANO kept from JJJ, simple trivia which ryuha? Plus GOHOATE was a common practice at the Kodokan even after the changes.

    There it is. I highly recommend reading the history part of "Mastering Jujitsu", it is a pretty concise guide to how JJJ, Judo and BJJ developed along their different paths.
    Although I like this book and I appluad Renzo's effort. He is not who I would recommend as a source on Koryu JJ or it development. Many of you are on the right tract but are just BARELY scratching the surface.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh

  10. #40
    Gezere's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Edge
    Thanks for the props yo:D, it was a good move to pick the aiki student to represent him, but it seems sneaky to me. Also, if GJJ is more like Judo, than why wasn't it named Gracie Judo?
    Kano WAS accused of stacking the deck in his favor.

    Also in japan they talked did about Brazilian JUDO back in the 50's and 60's. Also an American author made a refernce Brazialian Judo, note author was a judoka, when writing an article about Capoeria.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh

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