Goshin Do/Goshin Jutsu karate rears its silly head again

**RobT** · Posted On: 12/22/2007 5:02am

I think anyone who goes with the "he may be talking crap but the training is good" argument should have to post video of a training session.

**btbl** · Posted On: 12/27/2007 4:06pm

Originally Posted by Extinct

Your "master"?? What are you, a serf or something?

What IS it with these Goshin people and their absurd, inflated titles?

Oooh, ohh I'm gonna join Goshin, then I can call myself Super Duper Grandmaster Sosho Kyoto Doshu Hanshi Sokei Smith!

It will only take a weekend for one of the other Grandmasters to get promoted by his own students (Goshin people call that the "yooDon Shack hi") and he'll outrank me by Monday morning but wow, what a weekend its gonna be!

I called him that cuz thats what i consider him to be, and knowing Bill personally i know he has high ranks in other styles and i also know he is a much better martial artist then you will ever be. I called him master cuz i like the sound of it better then my Hanshi. But also Durant had a shodan in judo so he did not just give himself one either. You guy's just like to bitch so maybe you actually know someone abillitys before you start saying **** about them.

**btbl** · Posted On: 12/27/2007 4:13pm

Oh and Bill Cavalier has a black belt in Chitu Ryu Karate, Yoshin Ryu Ju Jutsu, Shito Ryu Karate, Chinese Kempo, And a black sash in Pai Lum. and i know what he teaches works cuz i've used in a fight before

**btbl** · Posted On: 12/27/2007 4:25pm

master durants son said this

He was born in Utica, N.Y. He was introduced to Jiu Jutsu and Savate by his father who was a "player" as they were called. I cannot give you facts other than what I know as far as training or Instructors. I DO know he was a Judo Player in the Judo Club in St.Catherines, Ont. Canada. I still have his Shodan card from that. I also KNOW he worked out for many years with Shintani Sensei, and have ways to back that up.

He worked with other Instructors in Erie, Pa, and met Wilhelm Reeders during those years and studied with him for quite awhile. As for the founding of the system, I know this will shock a few, but he did not found the system. Back in those days, the Orientals would never have recognized a system of Martial Arts created by an occidental.(White person) The system was actually founded under Mr. Reeders. And it was called Goshin Jutsu, which most know is just like a generic term for Self Defense Art.

When Master Reeders left the area, he turned the Goshin Jutsu over to my father. And the art itself is an eclectic art. My father took what he had learned from all the Instructors he had worked with, took what he felt was best, along with what he had learned as a young man raised on mean streets, and put it all together as his Art. And though people may condemn it as not being a true Art, 2 things we should remember. 1.......The art works as a self defense style. That has and can be proven. And 2.......other people have formed there own arts, all eclectic also, and are not condemned. (Bruce Lee to name one, and I am not making a comparison here.)

As for the act, such as the Oriental accent, believe me I was just as shocked when I walked in his Dojo in Tx., and heard it. But it was an idea someone had put in his head, that if he were Oriental, more people would want to be students. And silly as that seems, it worked. He had only Martial Arts to live on the last years of his life, so he did what he had to do to survive. No secret there. We all know he was not Oriental.

His 10th Dan? I can only say that he was presented the rank at a tournament in Erie, Pa., and Glenn Premru presented the ranking.

As for the real head of the system? Supposedly it should be me. I was presented a rank in N.Y. a few years ago. I respect the man who presented it, and accepted , rather than embarrass either him or myself. But I do not recognize myself as tenth Dan, nor do I want to be addressed as "Grand Master". I was a good 8th Dan, and felt that was way more than enough. There are better Goshinists than I around. Robert Bohac is a phenomenal Martial Artist, but I, nor any others outside his circle recognize him as the Grand Master. Mr. Brague is a great Martial Artist, but his ranking is through his own people, not recognized by all Goshinists. Mr. Capela in my mind would if anyone be the person I would recognize . He was the oldest student, and has always been a Loyal Goshinist. And anyone who has ever met the man, knows he is a gentleman, and one hell of a Martial Arts practitioner.
That is just my humble opinion people, if you disagree, that is your perrogative. There were other great Goshinists along the way too.......Ralph Porfilio, Vince Christiano, Bill Cavalier, etc. None of them deserve some of the ridicule I have seen, as they are not nasty people, nor drug addicts, alcoholics, etc, as I have seen posted in some sites.
I see this as one way, let it go...........

Goshin may not be the pure art some seem to think it has to be to be real, but it works, and has many followers, loyal ones. There are NO bad Martial Arts, just bad teachers. I have respect for any art, even if it's principles are different. I may not agree with everything they do, but maybe there will be one thing I can learn from it, and as a Martial Artist, that is all I want, to learn.

As for stories, or peoples claims, they will claim a lot of things, and stories get embellished, sometimes to the point of being ridiculous. But you all seem smart enough to sift through all that, and take the truth, or take something from it that will help you as Martial Artists.
I hope this helps a little. Anyone has any questions that are not ignorant, I would gladly try and help."

**bigphilwastaken** · Posted On: 12/27/2007 5:00pm

the majority of the people who are involved in this issue dont make any claims about his personal ability OUTSIDE of what we have seen on video and 1st and expereince. so i really dont understand where this comment is coming from.

and even if hes bruce lee combined with chuch norris and thor...hes still a fraud

Originally Posted by btbl

I called him that cuz thats what i consider him to be, and knowing Bill personally i know he has high ranks in other styles and i also know he is a much better martial artist then you will ever be. I called him master cuz i like the sound of it better then my Hanshi. But also Durant had a shodan in judo so he did not just give himself one either. You guy's just like to bitch so maybe you actually know someone abillitys before you start saying **** about them.

**btbl** · Posted On: 12/27/2007 8:06pm

Originally Posted by bigphilwastaken

the majority of the people who are involved in this issue dont make any claims about his personal ability OUTSIDE of what we have seen on video and 1st and expereince. so i really dont understand where this comment is coming from.

and even if hes bruce lee combined with chuch norris and thor...hes still a fraud

what im saying is Bill isn't a fraud because he has black belts in MA's that arent considerd frauds, many of his techniques are from kempo and shotokan as well as Pai Lum

**Pacer** · Posted On: 12/28/2007 12:22am

Originally Posted by btbl

I called him Master cuz thats what i consider him to be

Umm, okaay. Maybe your personal relationship with him ought to remain private.

Durant had a shodan in judo

Who convinced you of this?

**bigphilwastaken** · Posted On: 12/28/2007 1:22pm

if he claims rank from dauraunt, or continues to tell the goshin lies...then he is a fraud...or he is a victim of fraud. if he dosent...the i guess hes not(well at least about this topic...i dont know the guy)

Originally Posted by btbl

what im saying is Bill isn't a fraud because he has black belts in MA's that arent considerd frauds, many of his techniques are from kempo and shotokan as well as Pai Lum

**btbl** · Posted On: 12/29/2007 1:41pm

im done with this bullshit topic

**taters** · Posted On: 12/30/2007 5:41pm

I briefly studied at Goshin Jutsu at Royal in Erie, which as mentioned earlier is run, and afaik still is, by James Locke. The years were 1990-93 and i received the first of 3 degrees of brown belt. I can address some of Sisyphus questions from earlier in the thread, but first let me say that at the time I was young and had little frame of reference to critically analyze the school or style. My knowledge of other Japanese arts aside from Judo are purely academic, as the rest of my MA training as an adult have avoided these styles (shotokan/goju ryu etc).

Q1;If your teachers are claiming to be traditional Japanese karate and practice kata, then, are your Goshin style's kata mostly similar other orthodox styles?

Only very superficially, I have seen many Shotokan and Okinawan Kata as well as all of the Goshin ones and the individual strikes, kicks and blocks are basically identical. However the GJ kata always struck me as flashy and involved compared to the more simplistic trad. Kata.
I believe that, in part, the forms were designed from the start, to do well in the Kata competitions, which during my time there was a very big part of the experience, as well as point sparring. I understand these types of "Martial Arts" tourneys are very common still today, and at the time i thought it was pretty cool to be involved with it. In retrospect i think they are sad affairs and make people worse fighters, esp. the no contact point sparring. Also , Royal put on most of the tourneys in the Erie area at the time, fwtw.

Q2;Should a question not be made to your instructors, why the major differences?

In the modern internet age, with all the information available, there is no excuse for frauds to go uncovered. In the 80s and early 90s no one ever suspected. Also there were much more obvious and incredibly blatant frauds in the area. And with the acceptance of the other "legit" schools in the area (the Billy Blanks franchise among them), and the heavy Japanese flavor to everything, it was/is an attractive martial arts product.

Q3;Do Goshin kata have names common with established Japanese / Okinawan systems?

This ones easy. No. Much of the Japanese was the sort of stuff learned from a basic Instructional Language Booklet or Jap 101 in college. Much of it was mispronounced, mis translated, or false but Japanese sounding. Much more has been said previously in this topic then I can expand on.

I met Jerry Durant about a year before his death. He was wheel chair bound and quite ill. Any questioning of him or his claims was certain grounds for punishment if not expulsion.

On a side note the Aiki and Judo side dishes to the main course of BS Krotty were identical to mainstream teachings. The judo in particular i've studied more since, and all the techniques and names were orthodox Kodokan. The practice was much less rigorous though , as it was considered an accessory to the main style.