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  1. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2007 3:43pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk

    That pretty much sums it up. All three pretty much have origins in Buza, Samoz and Skobar as a base, to which they then add their own unique twists.
    Is anyone still teaching "pure" SAMOZ?
  2. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2007 4:23pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by ralphg
    pretty complicated, do you think any aikido or paqua may have been absorbed? i have several jiu jitsu books from 1900, which indicate that smaller japanese got the better of larger russians in h2h, articles in turn of the century magazines insist that this spurred russians to create their own system [true or false?] if true in your opinion than issambo/systema is less than 100 years old? or do you consider local wrestling systems like armenian khok, mongolian wrestling to be original russian systems?--ralph g
    If you do a search on the forum for Samoz or Spirdinov you will find a historical sketch that I did on Sambo/Samoz... focusing more in Samoz. Sambo is definitely less than a hundred years old(they didn't really start developing it until after 1917). Samoz was a later development of that. Then Systema, in all its variants are a later development. Kadochnikov didn't start until 1954. Ryabko and Vasiliev later.

    Kadochnikov himself was never much of a teacher. The books he co-authored(as in added his name to after they were written) with Victor are not as heavey mathematically and much more practical.

    In my opinion having studied systema after ROSS, I found it rather wanting in its current incarnation. The problem then arises that ROSS, at least in the US is dead(though there is a holdout in Millerville PA who has managed to avoid Sonnon's lawsuits) and Retuinskih now believes Americans to be back-stabbing theives, Kadochnikov does not take US students any longer and has reverted to his anti-US stance, Victor and Sergey only take advanced students, and while both are unbelieveable Martial Artists, they don't consider Ryabko or his system worthe their time, and unless you live near Atlanta GA or Olympia WA, there is really no one in the US doing PraMek(a derivative of Kadoch by Matt Powell under the guidance of Sergey and Victor).

    So as far as Systema goes if you have a previous background and are willing to spend a good deal of time developing proficiency go for it. However bear in mind that instructors are how should we say easily made, so be careful in picking your school if they charge. Otherwise either make arrangements with Matt Powell in Atlanta or bring him up for a Semmy(IMO they are very decently priced).
  3. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2007 4:26pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Is anyone still teaching "pure" SAMOZ?
    Actually yes, in Russia at least. They even have a website, though I can't remember the address right now.
  4. D Dempsey is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2007 4:41pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by melk
    Actually yes, in Russia at least. They even have a website, though I can't remember the address right now.
    To elaborate on this further I'm not sure it would be worth you time to find it. Matt trained in some of it while he was in Russia and didn't like it that much and after showing me some Samoz I could see why. It didn't really make sense from a mechanical stand point and I believe that Kadochnikov was probably the first person to make any sense of it.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2007 4:46pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm more interested in it from the historical point of view.
  6. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2007 5:06pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by D Dempsey
    To elaborate on this further I'm not sure it would be worth you time to find it. Matt trained in some of it while he was in Russia and didn't like it that much and after showing me some Samoz I could see why. It didn't really make sense from a mechanical stand point and I believe that Kadochnikov was probably the first person to make any sense of it.
    He was the only one screwed up in the head enough to make sense of it.

    Sorry I just got done slugging through the only two books he actually wrote... and hearing an author thank God for himself as if his birth were a separate act of Grace is just a little much.

    From a historical perspective it is interesting. Equally so and just as valuable is the Manual on Sambo entitled well CAMbO or Sambo by Oschepkov, which contains a detailed training regimine as well as full sections on Combat Sambo and Samoz, detailing technique differences and such. Unfortunately it is only in Russian, and no I don't plan to translate it anytime soon I have my hands full right now, pitching a MA to a government, finishing a video and finishing a couple of translations I have been working for about two years.
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2007 5:12pm

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    Did you get a sense of the working relationship (if any) between Oschepkov and Spiridonov?
  8. sui generis is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/29/2007 5:25pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    I've taken a few classes in the Ryabko style and IMO the intuitive approach works fine if the participant has an open mind and considerable prior experience in other styles. It's a good way to practice thinking, reacting and moving "outside the box". I think that it would take longer to develop real skill using this method if the participant didn't have a solid prior MA background.
    I'd second that. In fact, I often compare Systema to a post graduate studies program, which can make already good people with a credible MA-background much better - but can be next to useless in terms of real world applyability for people without a solid background.
  9. melk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2007 5:29pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    Did you get a sense of the working relationship (if any) between Oschepkov and Spiridonov?
    Yes they did work together to create Sambo. I wrote up a brief sketch here:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...ighlight=Samoz
  10. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/29/2007 5:35pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's a great post, pretty much confirming what I'd surmised about RMA history from the paltry sources available in English. I'm fascinated by what was going on at Dinamo.
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