Posted On:11/28/2007 7:00pm
Style: Kali and Silat
Has anyone checked out Bill Kipp and his adrenaline response training? I checked out what they do and it looked really stupid...
So I emailed the guy and he explained some things....
Apparently, he didn't make his own website so he was unaware of some of the claims on there...(Like being in Force Recon)...
Anyway, whatever he is, one thing is for sure..
He is a pretty nice guy. I never attended his training and it really looks like Bullshido, but before I judge it, I want to go and try it just to see.
I don't know whether he is the real thing or not, but he's not a jerk anyway. He wrote me a really nice email and seems like a genuinely nice guy...
If anyone has any experience with Bill Kipp's training, please let me know.
Posted On:11/28/2007 7:02pm
Could we have a link or something?
Posted On:11/28/2007 7:04pm
Here is some of his stuff...
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Posted On:11/28/2007 7:06pm
Posted On:11/28/2007 10:52pm
See post 16 for some of my comments about Bill Kipp's methods.
Posted On:11/28/2007 11:40pm
Okay, to simplify the question is how long these courses are and where the get the "muggers" from. In one version of the program sold through the NAPMA the karate school instructors would be running their own classes. Here Kipp may have trained the guys in the suits which ensures a higher level of quality. I have also never seen 4 or 5 "muggers" in a class, two are normal, so this was a demostration class.
Incidently they are allowing their students to do a front snap kick when in the old Model Mugging program students were only allowed to use a knee to the groin or head. The theory was that the snap kick was a low percentage move against a larger opponant and that the knee would hit with much more force.
The "muggers" are also not truly cursing at the students which was one of the ways they would try to enduce stress and what is typically done in the real world.
BTW the "muggers" totally leave their center line open giving the student the palm strike to the oversized head. Palm strikes are good however, after the beginning teaching scenarios the "muggers" should present a more difficult head target, by holding their hands as a normal person would.
Posted On:11/29/2007 12:25am
I think Sam's comments in the link he provides gives detailed treatment regarding how much this paradigm of training will help, or as it were, not help, a trained fighter, versus people who will benefitt. Sam should be a model of how to make a point as he provides examples and clearly explicates differences within the Model scenerio approaches. I have a couple of comments as well.
There is no doubt in my mind that for women, or those with a phobia about violence.... and there are many people who fit this bill, this type of training is excellent. For years I have told women who want to learn my stuff specifically for self defense that I would not teach them until they went through a program of this type. People have to realize that before you can use any weapon, or punch somoene in the face, you have to be prepared to do so and many of our social mores, particularly with women work against that instinct.... I use the term instinct loosely, fully aware that it is debatable whether a species that can cause someone to stick a knife in their body due to social cues (Samurai) or can make someone so resistant to the slightest violent action.... has any instincts to speak of.
Where I have a problem and would probably go so far as to call Kipp an asshole is when these guys badmouth traditional arts wholesale as being irrelevant to combat.
Bill you are an asshole because arts that have survived centuries of conflict and which are the derivative form for arts like MMA, etc cannot be dismissed wholesale by a "feel good" motivational bitch who basically is teaching amateurs how to psychologically grasp the necessity of violence under certain conditions. Shut the **** up and swallow...do your service to society and hand hold the well healed. But know your place... somehow people have answered the call to arms and learned to fight... they have written stuff down which worked and civilizations have been built on this uselessness.
It is worth noting that guys like Quinn do not badmouth traditional arts, and one can see videos of Quinn using Akido techniques as a means to bounce bad guys (for example). What people may not realize is that there is a big difference between finding your niche and discussing in an intelligent manner, why certain training modalities may not fit your profiled student, and castigating the training that professionals do because women are not taught that it is ok to punch somoene in the face sometimes.
Personally I like women who like to punch and fight.... hell I married one, and I if it was up to me it would be compulsory for all women to learn how to protect themselves and Bill and his gang would be the ones doing the training, but lets not confuse the issue! Sam is a lot more diplomatic on how he presents physical proof that not all individuals necessarily need the bulletmen.
I would go one step farther than Sam and say that one habituates to ALL types of violent action considerably... even with the knowledge that you might get your head knocked the **** off! I am an exampel of that as I went through a very intense figting program in full contact karate and am simply not the type of person that should have been able to do something like that. This type of training is hand holding... nothing wrong with it, but when it starts to get to big for its britches... something Peyton Quinn always seemed able to toe the line with.... I have a problem with it.
Posted On:11/29/2007 12:55am
Damn, this takes me back ...
... to the late '80s, when I can humbly claim to have pioneered this type of training in my home country. Funnily enough I used the acronym FAST too, although in my program it stood for "Freestyle Attack Simulation Training" (gimme a break, it was 1986). At that time I had nothing to go on but a couple of articles on Model Mugging from Black Belt magazine, maybe some of Tony Blauer's very early stuff, and an intuition that this method would work for my "target demographic" of not-necessarily-athletic, non-martial arts folks.
I haven't taught this stuff for years but I can attest that it does work well, within limits. I totally agree with SB that the quality of padded assailants makes a big difference to the outcome. There aren't that many guys out there who can really do that job well.
I always used to encourage my students to get into regular martial arts training after they'd graduated my courses, although at the time their options were limited. I remember hearing back from one woman who I'd trained before she went off on her OE ("overseas experience" - local term); she'd hospitalised a guy who got grabby in Italy. IMO she actually over-reacted, but better that than the other way.
SB, I hadn't seen that other thread where you outlined the history of adrenaline-based training; excellent job, sir.
Posted On:11/29/2007 11:29am
Style: Self Defense
This is my first foray into the forum and as an official digital dinosaur I will fumble through it as best I can. So far I can say that it appears to be a kickass website and that Samuel, you are a very well informed and articulate spokesman for the forum and for adrenal stress response training.
In general I am on the road too much training to consistently engage in forums, (plus Ive taken a helluva lotta hits to my head) so I can't promise a sustained discussion. But I'll do what I can. As to the Model Mugging/Impact/RMCAT/FAST Defense discussion, I'll put in my two cents.
Our "technology" as in the basic methods used in all of the above systems, is very easy to discount and talk **** about due to it's very different paradigm of teaching pedagogy. Hell, for 20 years now I have listened to every manner of **** talking about it from all sorts of people. But here is one clear fact: Not a single person that I have ever trained and who has overcome their initial presuppositions of the technology to actually experience it has ever been less than totally enamored with it. Nuff said.
As to the martial arts, I love the arts. Have studied various arts for 33 years, and hope to continue to a ripe"r" old age. But after training thousands of martial artists of almost every conceiveable style and rank, and fought them in the Bulletman suit (Mugger suit in the MM vernacular) I have the firm opinion that traditional MA training lacks some crucial components to arm someone to respond adequately in the adrenal rush of a real situation.
Even in the contrived arena of the adrenal stress classroom, I have seen over and over again highly skilled martial artists freeze up from just the verbal abuse we throw at them. Bring in the actual fight components and time and time again I have seen these martial artists fail to respond with any of their tradtional MA skills. And when they have, they did not work for them. It's not that arts are bad or wrong. There is simply a missing link to help bridge the gap between traditional training and the street. ASRT is that missing link.
To understand these training methods one has to understand the difference between symmetrical training (as in most traditional sparring and MA teaching methods) and asssymetrical training (that which we employ in adrenal stress scenario training). One must also be aware of the brain mapping we have done which corroborates our technology and showcases the specific problem of tradtional training. Simply put, the part of the brain where our traditional MA techniques are stored (the high road of the brain) is not the part of the brain that involuntarily takes over under duress. This is the low brain, specifically the amygdala, often called the "frog" brain. Thus under duress we do not have access to the eleborate MA skillsets that we study so long to master. We lose fine motor control, experience tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and tache psyche. Like it or not this is true.
We cannot learn to turn off this "switch", but we can learn to control it to a high degree, just as a bouncer does after continued exposure to stress, or a cop, or a soldier. Through assymetrical training we can engineer a similar reaction in a remarkably short amount of time. In FAST we do it in 2-3 hours. It sounds impossible, but yet we do it over and over again. And we have hundreds of success stories where people have used their FAST skills in real situations effectively.
This is discussed in greater detail in my book Turning Fear Into Power, where I also give the full history of this style of adrenal stress training (well put again by Samuel in post #16).
As to the needs for the Bulletman suit, it is a very valuable tool for this training method and allows the student to use their adrenaline and fear as a greater source of power. But in opposition to the paraphrased quotes made previously from my former partner in RMCAT Peyton Quinn, the suit is not essential to condition students to deal with the adrenaline rush. I have done numerous drills with martial artists and sports teams that absolutely adrenalized the students and produced positive results with no body armor whatsover. The format I desgined for RMCAT uses some of these drills to expose and identify the reality of the adrenal rush. It is not an argument about whether non armored drills work, but simply where it fits into the continuum of intensity. The EZ Defense program I designed for NAPMA back in 2001 has proven to be an excellent entry level journey into teaching this technology.
And i agree wholeheartedly with DdlR's statement that the quality of the armored attacker is VERY paramount to the efficacy of the training. All the time I have guys asking where do I get one a them suits. We do not sell suits without the requisite training. And in FAST and RMCAT, every new B-man is trained personally by myself or my Senior Trainers in the UK Dik Chance and Malcom Jones. It takes a skilled person with a big heart to get in the suits, push the students to their limits, and then take the shots from a totally adrenalized person.
Finally, this training works for non fighters and trained fighters alike. Perhaps professional fighters don't necessarily need this training, but they sure enjoy it and get a lot out of it when they have the open mindedness to try it!
Oh, and just one more thing, I was not in Force Recon. I was in Bn Recon, 3d Marines. My webmaster put that in there when he redid my site and I didn't catch it. Thanks for the heads up. But either way, that was 25 years ago and in truth our hand to hand was a "Combat TaeKwondo course" believe it or not. Hence it was up to us to find what we could. It turned into drunken cheat all you can warfare.
Anyway, I will end my longwinded 2+ cents diatribribe and get ready for a trip to sunny Cal for some advanced training. I hope to visit back here and play some more. Looks like nothing is sacred on this website and thats pretty friggin cool in itself!
ps-Simon, you are right on Bro: I'm one helluva an asshole! And I bet you are an excellent karate **** (affectionately of course)
Last edited by Billkipp; 11/29/2007 12:05pm at .
Posted On:11/30/2007 1:10am
ps-Simon, you are right on Bro: I'm one helluva an asshole! And I bet you are an excellent karate **** (affectionately of course)[/quote]
I have a pretty good grasp of psychology and nothing in my experience has allowed me to discount en total the ability of people to somehow function under flight or fight before soft science people had the brilliant idea to make it a niche market in the martial arts. You guys have your place and like I said before I am an advocate... I would not teach a women self defense before she went through a program like the type that you teach.... but know your place.
Your observation, which one could chalk up to bad martial arts training in the traditional arts is frankly just that Bill. To presume otherwise is arrogant and misleading. Keep in mind that the fathers of operant conditioning, which is really what you are espousing BTW, were rudely knocked off their perch when Chomsky showed what an ass Skinner really was when Skinner decided to try to prove language was operantly conditioned. Point being that what you espouse is not some evolutionary step, it is something that has its place as a means of efficiency and as a means of socializing/learning. We are social learners Bill, but you know that... If women were socialized to punch men in the face we, meaning us guys would be walking around with fat lips and you would be out of business.
I don't defend any specific TMA approach and could easily agree with you that what most people call training is bad conditioning regarding fight or flight. People being too elaborate with technique, people not finding what it is inside themselves that will make them fight when attacked, or people simply being unaccustomed to the psyiology changes that occur during combat, etc.
What people who analyze the psychology of combat often forget.... rather conveniently, is that people, being social animals, somehow find a way to fight when we need to. And Martial arts are an expression of how we do that most efficiently. An art that has survived since feudal Japan is an art that has enabled people, psychologically and otherwise, to use weapons to kill other people.... knowing that they could die, and dealing with adrenaline and not freezing up. More simply put, I propose a simple experiment Bill: I bet that if I made just one of the soccar moms who you empower in your martial arts motivationals think for a minute I may harm her child.. that she would do a number on all 250 pounds of me that would far eclipse anything you could teach that same women in a year's time.
The bottom line is that we all know how to fight Bill, and those silly martial arts that are so dated? they are the result of how to efficiently do that Bill. All you do is psychologically appropriate an idea that is foreign to some people... namely "its ok to smack the fucking **** out of somoene under certain circumstances." Now when I say "all you do" don't misunderstand me because I think that teaching women and other people averse to violence that it is ok under certain circumstances to respond with violence may be even more important than martial arts... at the very least you need to be able to understand this idea before you can fight when you are scared... But don't pretend what you do is some revolutionary approach to the arts.
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