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  1. Goju - Joe is offline
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    11/22/2007 10:58pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your initial post is flawed.

    Gord Gedau (however you spell his name) beat the crap out of people with his Karate, others won fights with kempo and other TMA's

    To say they simply sucked is wrong (kind of)

    What they lacked was a good ground game and understanding of submissions

    Later on when that was achieved MMA fighters needed, good wrestling. Then a good sprawl and now we are seeing an increase in striking.

    The concept of any one art being sufficient for sport and self defense is flawed.

    But that doesn't mean individual arts are flawed in them selves.
  2. Virus is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 2:35am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ironfist666
    Is it that sport martial arts have special techniques that traditional ones don't that make them better? In short No.
    I disagree with this. First of all we have to accept the fundamental notion that some technqiues are better than others. This is due to several factors such as leverage, amount of power they can deliver, the degree that they can keep you protected during execution, the difficulty of counters ect.

    Take aikido. Look at what you have on offer, loads of wrist locks and standing arm locks whereas these things are very dilute in in arts like judo. The reason: They aren't very good. Judo throws and wrestling takedowns are superior techniques to aikido "takedowns".

    Another thing about the difference is approaching what actually happens in a fight. What positions do you end up in? What grips do people use? What tactics do people employ? In a lot of stuff like JJJ or aikido you have these distanced, flowy technqiues that don't work very well because people do not fight from the highly artificial postures and attacks they are trained with.

    This is true of a great deal of martial arts, look at any training vids on youtube and 99.9999% of them are done this way.) They train standing arm and wrist submission techniques done on people that stand still and leave their arm out. When people are allowed to move, retract their arms, push, pull, grab ect, then they don't work unless you get very lucky. Guess what people do in judo randori or a wrestling match? They move, push, pull, grab, counter ect.

    Guess what someone on t3h str33t will do? The same thing. The sport styles have been training this way as long as we can trace, so there is a lot of in depth-knowledge about what really happens when you try an arm drag, or an overhead gi grip or shoot for the legs. There is a very good body of knowledge about what really works against a resisting opponent, which is lacking in the curriculums of most "traditional" styles. If someone shoots, you need to sprawl. Where is the sprawl in pure aikido? What is someone in a real fight more likely to use, a shootish sort of attack or are they more likely to stand on the spot grabbing your wrist? If you accept this basic reasoning then it follows that doing the aikido will make someone less prepared for a real fight than a wrestler.

    Look at the defense against strikes in your average lolkempo vid or karate demo. Big circular blocks that knock the punch away. Why aren't boxers using these? Becuase they are too slow. Someone with their hands up will always get them to your face quicker than you can circle down and deflect away. That's why they slip and cover. Where are these defenses in the curriculum of various pure "TMA" styles? It stands to reason that if you train in blocks that are too slow to actually work then you are less prepared to defend real strikes.

    So this why I believe that you are incorrect when you say that sports don't have better techniques than most "TMA".
  3. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 2:51am

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    can't...summon will....to post something productive....

    here's a picture of a cat in a dryer
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  4. Virus is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 2:55am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!


    Oh Hai! i staiz in here. until thread over.
    Last edited by Virus; 11/23/2007 8:59am at .
  5. asimpson2006 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Mechanicsburg PA
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    185

    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 8:33am


     Style: Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    I disagree with this. First of all we have to accept the fundamental notion that some technqiues are better than others. This is due to several factors such as leverage, amount of power they can deliver, the degree that they can keep you protected during execution, the difficulty of counters ect.

    Take aikido. Look at what you have on offer, loads of wrist locks and standing arm locks whereas these things are very dilute in in arts like judo. The reason: They aren't very good. Judo throws and wrestling takedowns are superior techniques to aikido "takedowns".

    Another thing about the difference is approaching what actually happens in a fight. What positions do you end up in? What grips do people use? What tactics do people employ? In a lot of stuff like JJJ or aikido you have these distanced, flowy technqiues that don't work very well because people do not fight from the highly artificial postures and attacks they are trained with.

    This is true of a great deal of martial arts, look at any training vids on youtube and 99.9999% of them are done this way.) They train standing arm and wrist submission techniques done on people that stand still and leave their arm out. When people are allowed to move, retract their arms, push, pull, grab ect, then they don't work unless you get very lucky. Guess what people do in judo randori or a wrestling match? They move, push, pull, grab, counter ect.

    Guess what someone on t3h str33t will do? The same thing. The sport styles have been training this way as long as we can trace, so there is a lot of in depth-knowledge about what really happens when you try an arm drag, or an overhead gi grip or shoot for the legs. There is a very good body of knowledge about what really works against a resisting opponent, which is lacking in the curriculums of most "traditional" styles. If someone shoots, you need to sprawl. Where is the sprawl in pure aikido? What is someone in a real fight more likely to use, a shootish sort of attack or are they more likely to stand on the spot grabbing your wrist? If you accept this basic reasoning then it follows that doing the aikido will make someone less prepared for a real fight than a wrestler.

    Look at the defense against strikes in your average lolkempo vid or karate demo. Big circular blocks that knock the punch away. Why aren't boxers using these? Becuase they are too slow. Someone with their hands up will always get them to your face quicker than you can circle down and deflect away. That's why they slip and cover. Where are these defenses in the curriculum of various pure "TMA" styles? It stands to reason that if you train in blocks that are too slow to actually work then you are less prepared to defend real strikes.

    So this why I believe that you are incorrect when you say that sports don't have better techniques than most "TMA".
    Some techniques are just better than others, it's a fact. I more of less seperate techniques in two main groups Fighting techniques and Forms techniques.

    Where I study, for our self defense, we do show you something things to keep in mind and some techniques you can against things like various types of grabs, but most of the time for our self defense one person or multiple attacks will attack you and when we start with the lower ranks, the attack will tap their hand for a punch or hand strike, and our leg for a kick. When we do grabs or hold we say hold, then the person will have to defend them selves against the attack. Of course the higher belts we do away with the telling you with we are doing and just attack you randomly and you have to defend yourself.

    I tend to like this better than a pre arangged self defense since there so many variables in an attack.

    I don't view step sparring as a bad thing, but it should not be solely used as a way to see sparring tactics. I believe step sparring should be done by having the person make their own using all the techniques they currently know.
  6. MaverickZ is offline

    Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 9:55am

    supporting member
     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    I disagree with this. First of all we have to accept the fundamental notion that some technqiues are better than others.
    This is an incorrect notion.
  7. Scott Larson is offline
    Scott Larson's Avatar

    Gold Summit Martial Arts Institute

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 10:07am


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    I disagree with this. First of all we have to accept the fundamental notion that some technqiues are better than others.
    How about, some techniques are better against certain types of styles/fighters?

    I think there are a lot of old techniques that were viable when people fought differently, or trained differently.

    Try raising your arms in a classical Muay Thai guard, leaving your body open, without the body conditioning that should go along with it.

    Basically, some techniques are outdated, and some techniques only work in certain situations.
    ________________________________________

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  8. MaverickZ is offline

    Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 10:24am

    supporting member
     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hui_Xiu
    Basically, some techniques are outdated, and some techniques only work in certain situations.
    All techniques work in certain situations.
  9. Hanniballistic is offline
    Hanniballistic's Avatar

    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 10:25am


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    This is an incorrect notion.
    Right Cross vs Dim mak sez you are wrong Mav
  10. MaverickZ is offline

    Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 10:31am

    supporting member
     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hanniballistic
    Right Cross vs Dim mak sez you are wrong Mav
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