DTT, congrats NOW you got my attention

[variance]

his strikes look... odd to me.
and the way he blocks and checks.. just doesn't seem right.
his swings don't feel like they have intent. neither do the blocks in his demos.
It's like he strikes and stops at the target. rather than striking through.

also concur on the stiffness/lack of fliuidity or "Flow" in movement and footwork.

Im modern arnis lineage.. and just started doce pares, so those are my reference points.

All the latosa escrima videos i could find were chunners who looked like they were applying bad habits from chun to FMA.

except for these really short ones of Rene Latosa which looked more like FMA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFWudQXBNls
Notice how Rene Latosa chambers... which I don't see in many of the Latosa videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88uLs9W6eEs
Chamber, Intent, Strike-through/follow through. Using the torso.


Now here's the Boztepe man himself doing the FMA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU4da8TsUTU
It's too edited and not continous enough for me to give a good opinion on it.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

This is not a troll. I have not thrown enough weight around in FMA on this site to troll with it.

The Latosa Weapons System I have been taught, starting with a lesson from Rene Latosa himself in 1998, is specific to Wing Tsun and any WT primary education student. It is SPECIFICALLY designed by Rene to complement and define a polar relationship with WT. You people on here would say "it fills in all of WT's hole and missing elements". I know Rene has taught many people, since he was the fourth instructor under AngelCabeles, anyone that came after that may have been his student at some point, so any other students of his have differents looks and variatins with his concepts.

I have an EBMAS footwork video on my Youtube channel that shows some of this WT/LWS synergy. WT is from back stance in a line, LWS is from a front stance in a quadra lateral stance. Both arts share a parrell toed in stance as a midpoint.

LWS is in direct codratiction to PTK in so many ways that it can be said that there only relationship is that they are both FMA. I would rather not get into the dead end arguement about whether latosa people should enter Dog Bro's. Its stupid. Rene has trained a champion level escrimador that cleaned house both in the USA and back in the islands. Its a mute point.

I would rather just deal with the basic differences in execution of escrima. please note that comparisions of differences need not make a claim of who's better or worse. I hate having to do these damb semantical apologys.

If you take the stick up and behind you to generate power it can generate awsome power, but the whole body is exposed to being hit while you do it. Latosa Escrima tries to always keep the weapon system between you and the enemys attacks, so we would not create a vulnerability to generate power. Maybe the power is worth the risk sometime too and maybe it takes longer and is harder to learn the short power.


The stuff I filmed and published on Youtube is very basic 3rd grader LWS stuff. It is leading the student to Doubleto techniques, using basically only #1 and #2 strikes to solve all problems. It switches to left hand, then add left foot front. Then the stick are held together as a large heavy double handed weapon(sword). Lock and block passing is then extended to the second stick, creating the Doubleto system. By this time you most sand with both feet side by side toed in at up on the balls of both and otate into a Quadralateral front stance at the 45 egree angles.

We also work towards attacking with the heel of the weapon and hold the length and the blade edge in reserve.

Roof top block from a #2 srike, thats it. Thats the whole system. From this everything is only a transition.

Also, and this is really important. We are training for the all or nothing battle. There is no other option but to wade in deep and see who dies, without getting cut or crushed yourself on the way. Alot of stick sparing (even some of the hallowed dog bro's) looks like uncommiteed waving the weapons around to keep the other guy at bay. That may be useful but it isn' t what we train for or what is most useful.

Closing across distance with powerful crushing blows that protect as they cut is the goal. All of the training drills are aimed at this. There are many variation of each attack type, allways with something removed for safety. Having the single common root movement gives the techinque a place to synergize from.

It is a bladed system that ends in empty hand. LWS is all lengths and combinations of weapons. It contains all of the FMA 'styles" but these only refine aspects of the core concepts. How can I hope to think I can master authentic Kali or Authentic abinico? It doesn'e even exist as a single thing to master anyway, but beyond that I don't live near Rene, I see him only a fee times year and in the long run its American now anyway.. I am not Filapino, our system of instruction will not foster these types of "authentic FMA styles". But when Rene gives a workshop or seminar, he always shows use something new from one of these familys or FA concepts and we can allready do it all from the core basics we learn in the beginning with the five concepts.

Defang the snake? Crush its skull and pick out the teeth easily

Figure Eight? Why draw the whole inifinty symbol if you can win with the very first angle of attack?

and what happens when all I have for a weapon is a plastic bag of soda cans as I walk out of a store? Can I use my FMA to make that into a weapon?





Rene teaches only one thing now, and it all transitions across everything else. Focus mitt hammer fists to improve a stick attack, stick work to refine blade, blade to put and edge back into stick or even empty hand. Staff to add length and then reverde daggers to shorten it back down. SYNERGY. What is the common Root of all of this.

I can learn twirls or any techniques from videos or even magazines, Rene is here to teach something that helps you undrestand it.



Dai Sifu Emin Boztepe is a product of first and formost Wing Tsun, but the influence of Latosa Escrima in the European WT network created a hybrid. Each art is taught as its own complete system, but they have strong overlap and refine different aspects in the beginning. In the long run (30 or 40 years) they become one Martial art, but in the short term they fill in each others "holes". WT is straight thrust punches and LWS is hooks and hammer fists. Both overlap and share a open hand palm striking system.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

his swings don't feel like they have intent. neither do the blocks in his demos.
It's like he strikes and stops at the target. rather than striking through.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFWudQXBNls

He lacks so much intent and stops his hits so that it breaks the tip off of the other guys stick.

Now here's the Boztepe man himself doing the FMA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU4da8TsUTU
It's too edited and not continous enough for me to give a good opinion on it.

This isn't the greatest video due to the still photos(and the song), but remember that to be effective you must be able to practice the movement system. LWS doesn'y use the "follow through" power generation because mssing the target with follow through leaves you very exposed and take a long time to get back to protected. LWS aims to hit with power and then control that power and stop it a few inchs into to the target. How deep does a crush or cut need to go anyway? If your target is moving and evades you, it is a short distance to recover another shot. and you stay protected at all times.

So alot of LWS video have this suppressed type hitting we use in training. The crashing forward pressure and about a foot of distance as been removedfrom the demo or exercise for safety, but an alive human target is still in the proper ocualr path of the attack.

this is a better EBMAS video of my Si-Fu. better song too......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwaUvkjFjW8

another camera angle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtnORR8pyDE

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

To further add to thread, I made this video for a special event in Germany and it has some stuff in the second half starting at 2:34. One of my local Si-Hings David Jones does some great stuff with padded sticks starting at 3:54.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFZcbyrQsik


no jokes about my pants please and yes this is another Rocking YouTube Icon!

[variance]

I would rather not get into the dead end arguement about whether latosa people should enter Dog Bro's. Its stupid.

Rene has trained a champion level escrimador that cleaned house both in the USA and back in the islands. Its a mute point.

You mean moot.

and really? a champion level or a champion escrimador? cleaned house?
Pray-tell, what tournament/competition did this happen at?
the WEKAF?

Dead end argument about whether people should enter Dog Brothers?
Not sure what your talking about. DB is as real as it can get to pressure-testing FMA in a almost no rules environment.

Also, and this is really important. We are training for the all or nothing battle. There is no other option but to wade in deep and see who dies, without getting cut or crushed yourself on the way. Alot of stick sparing (even some of the hallowed dog bro's) looks like uncommiteed waving the weapons around to keep the other guy at bay. That may be useful but it isn' t what we train for or what is most useful.

In other words, Latosa Escrima (chun) is too d34dly to spar with.
that's why you don't see any representatives in DB-style fighting (UFC)

I'm sensing a pattern here.

As for "uncommitted waving" part of it is keeping your hands moving and slightly relaxed so it doesn't become a easy target for your opponent. Holding your stick statically is a great way to ask for it to be hit with a quick abanico strike.

Closing across distance with powerful crushing blows that protect as they cut is the goal. All of the training drills are aimed at this. There are many variation of each attack type, allways with something removed for safety. Having the single common root movement gives the techinque a place to synergize from.

It is a bladed system that ends in empty hand. LWS is all lengths and combinations of weapons. It contains all of the FMA 'styles" but these only refine aspects of the core concepts. How can I hope to think I can master authentic Kali or Authentic abinico? It doesn'e even exist as a single thing to master anyway, but beyond that I don't live near Rene, I see him only a fee times year and in the long run its American now anyway.. I am not Filapino, our system of instruction will not foster these types of "authentic FMA styles". But when Rene gives a workshop or seminar, he always shows use something new from one of these familys or FA concepts and we can allready do it all from the core basics we learn in the beginning with the five concepts.

Defang the snake? Crush its skull and pick out the teeth easily

Figure Eight? Why draw the whole inifinty symbol if you can win with the very first angle of attack?

and what happens when all I have for a weapon is a plastic bag of soda cans as I walk out of a store? Can I use my FMA to make that into a weapon?

In other words,
It's not FMA. It's american. **** them filipinos. We don't need legit / authentic FMA because our improved version uses superior straight-forward Chun footwork. who needs that triangular evasive ****. We don't practice the other FMA **** cuz we can figure it all out from our superior concepts and principles.

Figure eight / Sinawali - Uh. Dead patttern used for coordination and muscle memory. not sure what you are critiquing here.

as for a bag of soda can quip.. not sure what you are trying to say here either. you can use anything as a weapon in FMA. all weapons are a extension of your arm.

Rene teaches only one thing now, and it all transitions across everything else. Focus mitt hammer fists to improve a stick attack, stick work to refine blade, blade to put and edge back into stick or even empty hand. Staff to add length and then reverde daggers to shorten it back down. SYNERGY. What is the common Root of all of this.

I can learn twirls or any techniques from videos or even magazines, Rene is here to teach something that helps you undrestand it.

More fun PR buzzwords. SYNERGY.
It's like chun with ECONOMY OF MOTION.
So since EBMAS is both.

EBMAS - Synergizing your PARADIGM with ECONOMY OF MOTION with LOW-RISK HIGH-YIELD techniques.

All teachers are supposed to teach you something to understand it.

Dai Sifu Emin Boztepe is a product of first and formost Wing Tsun, but the influence of Latosa Escrima in the European WT network created a hybrid. Each art is taught as its own complete system, but they have strong overlap and refine different aspects in the beginning. In the long run (30 or 40 years) they become one Martial art, but in the short term they fill in each others "holes". WT is straight thrust punches and LWS is hooks and hammer fists. Both overlap and share a open hand palm striking system.

So basically Latosa Escrima is really just chun in disguise not having any of the actual distinctive trademarks/signatures of FMA and SE Asian arts in general.


Things latosa escrima as applied to WT has discarded:
- Triangular Footwork/theory. Wow. considering this is one of the primary root concepts of FMA that differentiates it frlom other arts.

The legacy of Latosa Escrima or what Rene Latosa originally learned (but not what is in LWS)

Serrada Escrima (Cabales Serrada Escrima)
Angel Ovalles Cabales (1917-1991)

Angel Cabales is commonly known as the "Father of Escrima in the US" as
he was the first to openly teach FMA in the States.

Serrada translates to either "to close" or "close quarters". The style is noted for using a shorter cane, male triangle footwork, and quick, linear, inclose fighting. This blade and stick style translates well into empty hand applications.

Finally the lack of intent criticism
wasn't about Rene Latosa's video.
I was talking about your technique.

and you swing/cut through because if you have a stick or a sword
you are trying to slash through or bash through. You don't know how hard they are swinging their stick. and when you strike through

you are not a defensive disadvantage. not if you have your footwork right and you are utilizing your live hand properly. and by striking through you strike through their stick. into your target. (unless they executed a hard block/strike to counter)

[selfcritical]

In other words, Latosa Escrima (chun) is too d34dly to spar with.
that's why you don't see any representatives in DB-style fighting (UFC)

I'm sensing a pattern here.

As for "uncommitted waving" part of it is keeping your hands moving and slightly relaxed so it doesn't become a easy target for your opponent. Holding your stick statically is a great way to ask for it to be hit with a quick abanico strike.

This is a think a generally good point. Especially with short weapons, a single forward hand position equals an easily hit appendage. Short chambering positions and the ability to work the blade close to ones own body are I find the best general defense against hand shots.

In other words,
It's not FMA. It's american. **** them filipinos. We don't need legit / authentic FMA because our improved version uses superior straight-forward Chun footwork. who needs that triangular evasive ****. We don't practice the other FMA **** cuz we can figure it all out from our superior concepts and principles.

Figure eight / Sinawali - Uh. Dead patttern used for coordination and muscle memory. not sure what you are critiquing here.

To be fair, rene seems to be using pretty straight reverse triangle (or "female") footwork in those clips. We may be splitting hairs about latosa escrima in general and DTT's expression of the art.

I think DTT is questioning the validity of "figure eight" patterns as a defensive technique or counter, like for example the way you would see it in the pekiti umbrellas or the dog brothers "attacking blocks" material.

More fun PR buzzwords. SYNERGY.
It's like chun with ECONOMY OF MOTION.
So since EBMAS is both.

EBMAS - Synergizing your PARADIGM with ECONOMY OF MOTION with LOW-RISK HIGH-YIELD techniques.

Filling you with MENERGY!

Things latosa escrima as applied to WT has discarded:
- Triangular Footwork/theory. Wow. considering this is one of the primary root concepts of FMA that differentiates it frlom other arts.



and you swing/cut through because if you have a stick or a sword
you are trying to slash through or bash through. You don't know how hard they are swinging their stick. and when you strike through

you are not a defensive disadvantage. not if you have your footwork right and you are utilizing your live hand properly. and by striking through you strike through their stick. into your target. (unless they executed a hard block/strike to counter)

[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]

Well, depending on the range, fully swinging through or chambering can be inappropriate, but the way that I was taught to address this problem is........different than how DTT is doing it. Sounds like something we should get on video next chance me, nazsir and someone witha video camera can get together.

[Ryno]

If you want to look at how to swing a stick hard, watch the power hitters in baseball. They chamber aggressively, step toward third (right handed batter) to open their hips, they get lots of body torque, the hips and knees twist, and they follow all the way through. Swinging like DTT would be a slap hit single at best, but more likely a bunt. It will not knock anyone out, which should be the primary goal in an impact weapon fight. (And no one start in with that defanging stuff, I've broken my hand in stickfights and still won.)

There is little point to just arm-punching with a stick in your hand. If it connects, it may sting a tad, but won't inflict decisive damage. Always get your hips and body into it, and follow through. Even abanico strikes should have some body torque behind them, and shouldn't be only rely on wrist action.

What little I saw of Latosa, he does chamber with more commitment, and does have follow through.

Boztepe's footwork with the stick is beyond atrocious.

[selfcritical]

If you want to look at how to swing a stick hard, watch the power hitters in baseball. They chamber aggressively, step toward third (right handed batter) to open their hips, they get lots of body torque, the hips and knees twist, and they follow all the way through. Swinging like DTT would be a slap hit single at best, but more likely a bunt. It will not knock anyone out, which should be the primary goal in an impact weapon fight. (And no one start in with that defanging stuff, I've broken my hand in stickfights and still won.)

There is little point to just arm-punching with a stick in your hand. If it connects, it may sting a tad, but won't inflict decisive damage. Always get your hips and body into it, and follow through. Even abanico strikes should have some body torque behind them, and shouldn't be only rely on wrist action.

What little I saw of Latosa, he does chamber with more commitment, and does have follow through.

Boztepe's footwork with the stick is beyond atrocious.

When you are closing in to get into corto, the ability to maintain these same mechanics with relatively short hand/arm movments held close to the body can be very important to controlling the fight at that range. Me showing a short clip of video with "here's fluid strikes, here's jabs, and here's broken strikes at close range" would probably clear with waters a bit.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

You mean moot.

and really? a champion level or a champion escrimador? cleaned house?
Pray-tell, what tournament/competition did this happen at?
the WEKAF?

http://www.escrima-concepts.com/page13.html

CEDRIC CONCON

1982 U.C Open Tae Kwon Do Championships 1st.Place

1982 1st. Chabot Tae Kwon Do Championships 1st.Place

1982 North Lake Tahoe Karate Championships 1st.Place

1983 West Coast Karate Nationals, Full-Contact Escrima Division
1st.Place Middleweight Champion
Runner-up to Grand Champion Escrima Division

1984 West Coast Karate Nationals, Full-Contact Escrima Division
1st.Place Middleweight Champion
Grand Champion Escrima Fighting

1985 WES West Eskrima Society Full-Contact Escrima Tournament
1st.Place Middleweight Champion
Grand Champion Escrima Fighting

1987 WES West Eskrima Society Full-Contact Escrima Tournament
1st.Place Middleweight Champion
Grand Champion Escrima Fighting

1989 1st. WEKAF World Championships
Champion Super Middleweight Division

1992 2nd. WEKAF World Championships
Champion Super Middleweight Division

1993 Sensei Gene Tibon "Battle of the Best" Martial Arts Benefit
1st.Place Middleweight Division

1993 TC2000 Martial Arts Championships, Escrima Fighting Division
1st.Place Middleweight Division Point Contact
Runner-up to Grand Champion Point Contact
1st.Place Middleweight Division Full Contact
Grand Champion Full Contact Division

1996 Professor Joe Halbuna "Battle of the Bay", Escrima Fighting Division
1st.Place Escrima Fighting Division

Dead end argument about whether people should enter Dog Brothers?
Not sure what your talking about. DB is as real as it can get to pressure-testing FMA in a almost no rules environment.

Just that having this agruement will not be productive is this thread.

In other words, Latosa Escrima (chun) is too d34dly to spar with.
that's why you don't see any representatives in DB-style fighting (UFC)

I'm sensing a pattern here.

How do you know there are no Latosa Influenced systems in DogBros. He teaches alot of people, not just EBMAS.

As for "uncommitted waving" part of it is keeping your hands moving and slightly relaxed so it doesn't become a easy target for your opponent. Holding your stick statically is a great way to ask for it to be hit with a quick abanico strike.

First of all, no. Keeping your hands moving also makes it harder to movement in a different direction and gives the enemy a pattern and tempo to work off. So neither is better or worse, they are just different.

Abanico strike? Ya if The hands just sit there and get hit. What if the hand is smashing into you with a full forward step behind it? I will have to post some video to explore this.

In other words,
It's not FMA. It's american. **** them filipinos. We don't need legit / authentic FMA because our improved version uses superior straight-forward Chun footwork. who needs that triangular evasive ****. We don't practice the other FMA **** cuz we can figure it all out from our superior concepts and principles.

Will, Rene Latosa is a Filapino and is Father Juan Latosa built the Community center Stockton. The point is Rene made it a cosmopolitian system for everyone, not just a stylistic FMA thing.

Figure eight / Sinawali - Uh. Dead patttern used for coordination and muscle memory. not sure what you are critiquing here.

what is that pattern you are talking about waving around to keep the hands moving again? Is that a dead pattern? You cann't have it both ways. Someone posted about not seeing me use the Figure 8 so I was just pointing out that doing commited #2 followed by a #1 is a figure 8, that the 8 has many single powerful angles. We try to win with an attack, not move around and wave our hands around to hopefully distract the enemys attacks.

as for a bag of soda can quip.. not sure what you are trying to say here either. you can use anything as a weapon in FMA. all weapons are a extension of your arm.

So you would wave the bag of sodas around to prevent a moving target? Would you use an "abinico" strike witht he bag? Which style would you us to win with a bag? LWS usis the same core for everything, no stylized internals.

More fun PR buzzwords. SYNERGY.
It's like chun with ECONOMY OF MOTION.
So since EBMAS is both.

EBMAS - Synergizing your PARADIGM with ECONOMY OF MOTION with LOW-RISK HIGH-YIELD techniques.

All teachers are supposed to teach you something to understand it.

College, more PR buzzwords.....

No, its 5 simple concepts. and LWS is the big picture, WT is just one of many sub-styles that the 5 concepts can explain.

So basically Latosa Escrima is really just chun in disguise not having any of the actual distinctive trademarks/signatures of FMA and SE Asian arts in general.


Things latosa escrima as applied to WT has discarded:
- Triangular Footwork/theory. Wow. considering this is one of the primary root concepts of FMA that differentiates it frlom other arts.

The legacy of Latosa Escrima or what Rene Latosa originally learned (but not what is in LWS)

[SIZE=3] Serrada Escrima (Cabales Serrada Escrima)
Angel Ovalles Cabales (1917-1991)

Angel Cabales is commonly known as the "Father of Escrima in the US" as
he was the first to openly teach FMA in the States.

Serrada translates to either "to close" or "close quarters". The style is noted for using a shorter cane, male triangle footwork, and quick, linear, inclose fighting. This blade and stick style translates well into empty hand applications.

Rene was the fourth student in the Cabales program. Renes Father built the community center building and Rene grew up there pllaying with the old timers. Rene was an Instructor under Cabales. Later Juan Latosa reveled that he too was an Escrimador and had left the Islands to come to the States because of the fights he was getting into. It turns out that while Angle learned the art from a fellow suger cane farmer Juan Latosa had lived and trained in the Visyan Caves for many years. So Rene then learned a bunch of stuff from his Dads experience and teaching.

So it is much more then just Serrada.

Finally the lack of intent criticism
wasn't about Rene Latosa's video.
I was talking about your technique.

o, funny....

and you swing/cut through because if you have a stick or a sword
you are trying to slash through or bash through. You don't know how hard they are swinging their stick. and when you strike through

you are not a defensive disadvantage. not if you have your footwork right and you are utilizing your live hand properly. and by striking through you strike through their stick. into your target. (unless they executed a hard block/strike to counter)

So you must relie on quite a few factors to succed then, footwork, follow through and recovery, the check hand, blocking their attacks. Sounds complicated.

I think DTT is questioning the validity of "figure eight" patterns as a defensive technique or counter, like for example the way you would see it in the pekiti umbrellas or the dog brothers "attacking blocks" material.

exactly. Not they are bad, more that I am showing what LWS starts with, the basic Beginners foundations that then goes into double sticks, staff, very short blade and boxing. So this foundation is very simple.

Well, depending on the range, fully swinging through or chambering can be inappropriate, but the way that I was taught to address this problem is........different than how DTT is doing it. Sounds like something we should get on video next chance me, nazsir and someone witha video camera can get together.

We swing through, its just our "through" is much shorter....:icon_razz

[selfcritical]

Actually, I'll just ask Thesurgeon if he'd be up for doing it this weekend. I'll just need nazsir or question!(if his ankle is better)