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  1. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2007 11:15am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    DTT, congrats NOW you got my attention

    I know you are one of the few people who has posted some basic demonstrations of their system at work to go over basics like how you move etc. I also think that the idea that unless I can demonstrate something better, I should keep my cricitism down is somewhat fair. So, here is what I will be trying to do with this thread.

    1)Compile a link to what you've demonstrated so far FMA-wise, with comments from you about what each video is about

    2) Some fight footage! that's pretty clear so that those of of with some FMA experience can talk about what's going on in the videos from the perspectives of our systems, how we would do stuff differently, so that we can get a more concrete idea of where our training differs

    3) Finally, if you do have some questions about how I would perform certain aspects of the art(footwork, striking mechanics, loading positions, etc). I'll try and get some footage explaining at the next throwdown.

    And to make sure that it's clear i'm not just leveling criticism in one direction, let me post some video that will definately be unflattering toward me.

    Here's some footage from the Austin throwdown, first match is me versus a primarily Hung Gar praticioner who has some irregular Pekiti training. Obviously low contact, obviously just screwing around a little, but it'll be somewhere to start. Me and alan was the only FMA on FMA fight of the bunch.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hm2n3JLXew
    Last edited by selfcritical; 11/13/2007 11:44pm at .
  2. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2007 1:17pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok i'll start here with the DTT vids, and try to give some intelligent commentary on each

    Alright, I'll start with the most basic one. DTT seems to be showing some basic striking mechanics in Latosa, which from what I can tell seems to work primarily on dropping your weight with the strike, as opposed to hip rotation or forward movement, frex. Hands seem to stay at about 3 quarters extension, roughly solar plexus level, and each hand when swinging seems to stay in it's hemisphere. No chambering is displayed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUI-naG0w8U

    <insert DTT commentary here>

    Second Clip!

    Here we see DTT screwing around with one of his students with a stick. It SEEMS like he's primarily working entries on delfection. Here it appears he primarily does so by advancing forward with arm and stick in some sort of solid structure inside the arc of the attack to absorb the force of the incoming blow, and then seek check-hand-on-weapon-arm contact to clear the obstruction and strike. More angulation appears in this video, essentially enough to get his centerline facing the attack. Sometimes the arms stay in, sometimes they go out to meet the incoming attack

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afbnpOZyJzY

    {insert DTT commentary here}

    Video three!

    Here we see some slightly different striking mechanics, with light rotation and just a slight bit of chambering on the right hand side. The weight drop still seems to be a major component of the power generation here. The stick is not quite as upright as in the earlier clip, which I was made to understand as a means to keep the body covered.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCV0n9tIvf4
    {insert DTT commentary here}

    Video four!

    This is another entry and deflection video. DTT is answering both the one and two (forehand and backhand) angles, entering and doing some random finishes. Two things of note here; DTT only uses the backhand cut (well, arguably some were overhand centerline cuts) to answer both angles one and two. This is done both diagonlly and rising in a manner most would call a roof block. Secondly, regardless of angle DTT steps in with this right foot toward the outside of the feeders left foot, striking across the arc of the attack. He does not appear to be attempting to get particularly inside or outside of the arc of the attack. In some cases, once the right foot plants dtt will swing his hips and left leg around to sector himself outside of his opponent.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtvfVDP9Q8Q

    {insert DTT commentary here)

    Fifth Video!

    Here DTT is showing some more footwork. The basic movement seems to be a step forward into a squatting, almost horse-stanceish motion, with his legs almost squared up from his opponent. From here, he seems to swivel one of the legs away and to the back, as if away from an attempt to flank. The strikes here are pretty similar to what we've seen, with the arm and hand between solar plexus and head, one strikes timed with the weight drops, and side to side movement taking place primarily between the shoulders. The defensive shapes i see here are entering under a sort of roof block, and an open-top triangle shape in the striking(as opposed to an "A" shape or a figure 8)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnviFv22jE8

    {DTT comments go here}

    Final DTT video

    Here they're just sort of free-flowing almost-not-really sparring, with DTT looking to get the entry. Most of the time DTT seems to target the hand or (more often) the stick to break momentum. He doesn't appear to attempt damage until he has at least one hand in control of his partner. strikes are similar to what we've seen before, and range is pretty much maintained(just outside of where the two could extend their fists and touch). Footwork is strongly lead-dominant.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr44tTl4Vaw
    {DTT commentary goes here}


    This video was posted as a reply

    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3o847DZ5T0 name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3o847DZ5T0 type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

    I don't have any comments just this second, I'll post more thoughts

    PS. I don't know what's up with the double-posted vids, I'll try and search function to fix it when I get back from lunch
    Last edited by selfcritical; 11/13/2007 11:59pm at .
  3. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    11/13/2007 6:08pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cool but I gotta go to work so i cann't comment. If you just cut and past a you tube link from the brower address window this site automatically makes it into a streaming video. Saves on all that embeded text stuff.

    I be back later to participate.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  4. Boyd is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/13/2007 7:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To the original poster: for the sake of this thread, please halve the number of videos posted and use the bracketYTbracket tag instead of traditional HTML.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  5. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2007 5:13am

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Boyds not in here too is he?........hehehe:icon_wink


    This is the Vblog I set up to go with those videos, with commentary as included in the videos.

    http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...42EC67768170FF


    and Yes I put the "form" video at the end too.

    the vlog also has tis clip

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kalDBuEiuW4

    which went from a bullshido thread about the pros and cons of tire training , a corner stone of Traditional FMA.Since it has portions of me trying the techniques they are using it will confuse this thread so maybe it should be ignored.

    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Ok i'll start here with the DTT vids, and try to give some intelligent commentary on each

    Alright, I'll start with the most basic one. DTT seems to be showing some basic striking mechanics in Latosa, which from what I can tell seems to work primarily on dropping your weight with the strike, as opposed to hip rotation or forward movement, frex. Hands seem to stay at about 3 quarters extension, roughly solar plexus level, and each hand when swinging seems to stay in it's hemisphere. No chambering is displayed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUI-naG0w8U


    Basic #1 and #2 anglewith slight weight drop and forward direct attack. This movement is strained stationry but often is used with some kind of rapid forard step. It does not have hip or shoulder rotation and has the fised spine. These feature from the base. If you watch the knees and imagine the feet on the balls and slightly toed in, you can see that the "forward" leg alternates from right to left with a subtle shift.

    The Left is used before I switch to double sticks just to some the transition aspect of the same strike on same stances with same lack of rotation. This way with double stick the trunk is not caught between two types of rotatioary forces.

    I finsh with a punch because all the power genartion ends witht he fist, and this is the bpunch behind every strike.




    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Second Clip!

    Here we see DTT screwing around with one of his students with a stick. It SEEMS like he's primarily working entries on delfection. Here it appears he primarily does so by advancing forward with arm and stick in some sort of solid structure inside the arc of the attack to absorb the force of the incoming blow, and then seek check-hand-on-weapon-arm contact to clear the obstruction and strike. More angulation appears in this video, essentially enough to get his centerline facing the attack. Sometimes the arms stay in, sometimes they go out to meet the incoming attack

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afbnpOZyJzY

    This video is my most recent Escrima demo.

    it shows a good amount of transition from various distance, timing, targets, and weapon positions. It has chasing footwork and it goes into long padded stick vs Short for some light contact.

    This drill is about visual reaction to starting movement and using whatever attack you have to meet the situation. WT-Noob here has only basic strike technique and is stopping and NOT CHANGING his attack. It is live stick and I am in control of all the power exchange by timing and distance.

    Starts with simple blocks to #1, then blocks to #2's. Then at 0:13 I say to give any #1 or #2.

    It is mostly various entrys to stabs, arm locks, disarms, and empty hand striking. The padded short vs long is really more of me using the long shape to symbolize the pressure of any attack from abve that is longer then my reach. Since its "swords" we have to image some light armour and so and kill shots would need penetrating force. This allows for entangle ments of the blade sometimes.




    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Video three!

    Here we see some slightly different striking mechanics, with light rotation and just a slight bit of chambering on the right hand side. The weight drop still seems to be a major component of the power generation here. The stick is not quite as upright as in the earlier clip, which I was made to understand as a means to keep the body covered.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCV0n9tIvf4

    Transition in weapons, lengths, and synergy of the technique concept back into single stick on the #1 angle.


    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Video four!

    This is another entry and deflection video. DTT is answering both the one and two (forehand and backhand) angles, entering and doing some random finishes. Two things of note here; DTT only uses the backhand cut (well, arguably some were overhand centerline cuts) to answer both angles one and two. This is done both diagonlly and rising in a manner most would call a roof block. Secondly, regardless of angle DTT steps in with this right foot toward the outside of the feeders left foot, striking across the arc of the attack. He does not appear to be attempting to get particularly inside or outside of the arc of the attack. In some cases, once the right foot plants dtt will swing his hips and left leg around to sector himself outside of his opponent.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtvfVDP9Q8Q

    Roof top block. First Video attempt ever.

    The roof keeps out all types of Rain.


    I take the roof across straight, right, left, into stab, into slicing cutts,in left cross, into butt strikes, disarm, but strike disarm, butt strike pinning strike, and lock and block. The three slices on the arm at 0:30 go Hand, elbow, tricep/bicep zone, shoulder, which are the zones of depth other then the head these "blocks" occur at.

    This video has an really tight Youtube ICON one of my favorits I have made.


    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Fifth Video!

    Here DTT is showing some more footwork. The basic movement seems to be a step forward into a squatting, almost horse-stanceish motion, with his legs almost squared up from his opponent. From here, he seems to swivel one of the legs away and to the back, as if away from an attempt to flank. The strikes here are pretty similar to what we've seen, with the arm and hand between solar plexus and head, one strikes timed with the weight drops, and side to side movement taking place primarily between the shoulders. The defensive shapes i see here are entering under a sort of roof block, and an open-top triangle shape in the striking(as opposed to an "A" shape or a figure 8)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnviFv22jE8

    This is my favorite video I ever have made.


    We call the stance the quadralateral stance. the feet are on the poinst of a square so if you turn 90 degrees your front foot changes. the 45 degree angle from the front stance is the WT IRAS stance. You stay square at all times to dircet power, the swivel has a WT turnning stance at its core, and we must swivel this way if we pass a target or if they pass us. Leaving the leg out towards the enemy resuls in a WT back stance. The open top v you notice is the result of tight #1 and #2 geometry. I also do som e#3 attachs and do some sliceing up and down on the #2 angle which is part of the Firgue 8 cycle.

    After I back up from a shorter imaginary weapon I do some horizontal entry attacks, which relate to the staff and short blade line, and then some very close emergancy strikes. In the last sequence I even do a few #4 angles as a bpassing block.


    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Final DTT video

    Here they're just sort of free-flowing almost-not-really sparring, with DTT looking to get the entry. Most of the time DTT seems to target the hand or (more often) the stick to break momentum. He doesn't appear to attempt damage until he has at least one hand in control of his partner. strikes are similar to what we've seen before, and range is pretty much maintained(just outside of where the two could extend their fists and touch). Footwork is strongly lead-dominant.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr44tTl4Vaw


    I make it to about 1:45 before I get stabbed. Just keep in mind everything in training is suppressing a stronger cut through and forward step.



    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    This video was posted as a reply

    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="r3o847DZ5T0[/yt] name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="r3o847DZ5T0[/yt] type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

    I don't have any comments just this second, I'll post more thoughts

    PS. I don't know what's up with the double-posted vids, I'll try and search function to fix it when I get back from lunch
    This and your stuff, most PTK influenced I guess, have this wave motion with the roof top and #4 to #1 Figure 8 cycle with the stick coming behind the back. We don't go behind the back like that. All Latosa Escrima basic attacks crash forward while the material in these other video seems to have attacks stop at distance and slice away at the air in between. In other words not closing in for the kill strike. So there is a wider range of foot work movement. We only have 1 stance.


    not sure if that helps or hurts, I nneed sleep, more later.

    edit:This video has some sticks from about 1:19. Sorry about the craptastic footage leading up to it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b07EfW4MGHQ
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 11/14/2007 5:32am at .

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  6. Naszir is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2007 1:51pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo, SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DTT, your footwork video was the reason why I asked if you were just taking escrima or teaching it. You seem almost jerky and halting in your movements and I honestly thought you were trolling. I have never sparred anyone with Latosa lineage so I don't know what exactly I am looking at but I know PTK, Inosanto/LaCoste, Ilustrisimo and Serrada look far more similar to one another than any of them look to anything that you displayed. I haven't actively trained FMA in a year but seriously, your technique and your justifications for it seem very suspect to me.
  7. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2007 2:55pm

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     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is why I wish the UFC obliged the Dog Bros. and started a stick fighting division so we could end these debates too :P
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  8. Naszir is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2007 3:15pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo, SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No need for the UFC to do anything. We have the Gatherings, Cold Steel, WEKAF, tons of stuff in the PI and the ability to put on whatever and just scrap. There isn't anything to settle that requires an Octagon or anyone being asked if they "want to be a f*(&in' fighter".

    This is about specific issues with DTT's videos.
  9. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2007 4:41pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DTT, is your system primarily a bladed system?
  10. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/14/2007 5:41pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lemme see if I can find footage of others praticing DTT's system too as a reference.
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