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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/21/2007 3:03pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did you ever suffer any complications during your service? Or after?

    My father was a soldier back in Nicaragua and did all that stuff, the long marches and patrols with all that gear (plus he had a habit of running 8-10km regularly.) He never experienced any problems until he was turning 50. His knees and calves would swell on and off, so that makes me wonder.

    OTH, I guess that's an acceptable risk when weighted next to all the other **** you guys have to deal with (bullets, bombs and ****.)
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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2007 4:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    ...His knees and calves would swell on and off, so that makes me wonder.
    A significant number of people have knee problems in the 50s regardless of what they did or did not do in their youth. It's easy to conclude that your father's military experience and his propensity for running as the probable cause of his knee problems, but the reasons - just like the knees themselves - are probably a more complex set of interrelated factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    ...or is this a case where the assumption (my assumption) of the risks involved with weight vests are grossly exagerated????
    I don't think the risks are exaggerated, but I do think saying they are "grossly exaggerated" is a bit much. I only brought the two examples up because you asked "what kind of goliath can use a 40-pounder" in the context as if it was an extremely extraordinary feat. The reality is there are tens of thousands of military personal, firefighters, police, sanitation workers, mechanics, etc who carry and walk around with varying loads on a day-to-day basis.

    My gut says to consider this is a case more about the issues of people being idiots with weight vests when they don't have proper instruction or supervision.

    Anyway, as far as risks are concerned, not too many people who consider themselves athletes want to be ordinary. And while no one should dumbly take an unecessary risk to further their performance, athletes frequently practice training modalities which would make many people cringe. (such as Parkour, lol)


    Olympic weightlifters can and do load up 150+ pounds on the bar and practice jump squats up and down stadium steps. (!!!!!) That might be extreme, but it isn't necessarily entirely crazy in the right context at the right times in their training cycles and under the right supervision.


    Cyclist Chris Hoy performing jump squats with what appears to be either 95 or 115 pounds on the bar:
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 11/21/2007 4:08pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

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  3. PirateJon is offline
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    and good morning to you too

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    Posted On:
    11/21/2007 4:20pm

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     Style: MT/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Walking or running carrying a large load has been done since Thag hauled his favorite log from one cave to another.

    That doesn't mean the benefits of adding additional weight to exercises outweighs the risks. IMO, skip the lead in your shorts and do another rep/lap.
    Last edited by PirateJon; 11/21/2007 4:51pm at . Reason: I sux
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
  4. Emevas is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/21/2007 4:33pm

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     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    I do not mean to minimize the risk involved, especially when doing exercises with a high ballistic quotient. However,

    - Military "Full Battle Rattle" is 90+ pounds.

    - A firefighter suited up is carrying roughly an additional 84 pounds (please notice the xVest maximum weight).
    Yes, the Military does ruck marches/run with packs, but it doesn't necessarily make it the best/most effective means. The military also does a ton of running before anyone has a chance to eat, a lot of sleep depravation, and usually a lot of general PT exercises with no real rhyme or reason to them (other than "Go do some push-ups, now do some sit-ups"). The military's primary purpose isn't necessarily to get people into great shape, but to make them tough mentally and physically.

    Also, the Military seems to be straying away from running with packs nowadays. There's even some talks of no longer running in boots, but only in running shoes.

    However, I'm in the Air Force, so a lot of what I'm saying may not apply =P


    Edit: Just read your other post, and yeah, pretty much spot on.
    Last edited by Emevas; 11/21/2007 4:37pm at .
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  5. handoverfist is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/21/2007 4:48pm


     Style: PLUR

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Did you ever suffer any complications during your service? Or after?

    My father was a soldier back in Nicaragua and did all that stuff, the long marches and patrols with all that gear (plus he had a habit of running 8-10km regularly.) He never experienced any problems until he was turning 50. His knees and calves would swell on and off, so that makes me wonder.

    OTH, I guess that's an acceptable risk when weighted next to all the other **** you guys have to deal with (bullets, bombs and ****.)
    The only complications I ever came across were pinched nerves and numb feet (I was an MP). I know that numb feet sounds like some ***** ****, but having them for three years after your EAS can really freak a man out.
    Last edited by handoverfist; 11/21/2007 4:50pm at .
  6. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 4:05pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Double Post
    Last edited by Jhemsley; 11/23/2007 4:54pm at .
  7. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 4:46pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
    Then you have to consider the following. Unless you have strong, conditioned bones and tendons, that extra weight can mess you up (search for the effects of obesity in tendons and bones.) Maybe I'm overreacting and talking out of my ass, but I wouldn't want to do a 4-mile run with one of those on a regular basis.
    To chime in on the point about guys doing 80+ pounds all the time in the military and firefighting, vs. tendon and bone damage vs. obesity, there are two significant differences between obesity weight and ruck / weight vest weight regarding this issue.

    1) Obesity weight never comes off during any activity, essentially, there is no recovery phase. Even hiking with a 60 pound ruck, the ruck comes off at camp sites and during breaks. FIrefighters don't walk around the firehall with their equipment on either. Military guys probably wear the stuff the most, but even they wear it less than 50% of the time (unless in a heavy combat zone or during an intense physical training phase - but neither occur for over 50% of their careers). If you are 70 pounds over weight, you're lugging it everywhere from the moment your feet hit the floor in the morning.

    2) Rucksacks, weight vests, etc. are designed with the intent to keep the weight transferring directly to the hips and then through the knees the way nature intended. Obviously, its not done perfectly, but at least modern equipment is designed with the goal of putting the weight high and close the the back in conjunction with a hip belt, so more often than not most of the weight will be born as efficiently as possible in this regard.

    Weight vests (that I've seen anyway) address the issue by keep the weight distributed evenly around the torso above the lower edge of the rib cage with thinner longer weights, which has a similar effect. In both cases, the weight is kept high and tight (or placed directly on the hips via a hip belt), so the hips bear the weight fine since its coming from above with little assistance from the back. As a result, he weight put on the knees is generally downward, which knees can pretty much do in amounts approaching that of the hips. Its rotational forces the knees handle subopitmally.

    In contrast, obesity weight tends to concentrate on the belly and in the body cavity, placing extradinary stress on the lower back, as well as the sides of the hips and buttocks. Since the fat on the hips and buttocks pulls on the edges of the hips instead of putting it on top of them, the weight doesn't travel through the hips the way mother nature intended.

    Put belly fat and hip fat and buttock fat together (or alone for that matter), the body's center of gravity is always getting thrown and tossed out of whack, which is why overtime obese people always seem clumsy, no amount of natural dexterity can completely nullify a constantly shifting center of gravity. This shifting places extraordinary rotational stresses on the knees. As I'm sure a big fan of squats and deadlifts like yourelf knows, knees are great at transferring loads directly downward. They aren't designed to deal with rotational stress with the same rigor. Combine the steady rotational stress with the lack of recovery time for the joints to heal the normal wear and tear the body accumulates, and you can easily see why obese people have more problems than avid hikers, even though they both end up carrying heavy loads for long durations.
    Last edited by Jhemsley; 11/23/2007 4:56pm at .
  8. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 4:52pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Now that I've made a short story long, with reagrds to the OP, I'd be really hesitatant about a big weight vest doing Parkour - even though you're using something that displaces additional weight fairly optimaly, I'd be EXTREMELY concerned about doing something like that with an agility excercise. Your body is constantly calibrating itself based on its body weight, even when you are casually walking. Your planning on adding a huge weight difference just as your about to ask your body to give you its optimal dexterity. See the problem here? Working up from a smaller load isn't going to compensate for this sudden imbalance your body is dealing with just as it's balance is stressed the most.

    I'd encourage you follow the FAQ at the Xvest website, which I quote below:


    What weight do I start out with?
    It depends on the exercise and your condition. It is recommended to start out very low (4 to 6 percent of body weight). Even if it is a power-walking program, start out low. And once you become accustom to that extra weight, add more resistance weight.


    If you are a conditioned athlete and you are doing speed or agility drills, you should not use any more weight than 4 to 6 percent of body weight. If you are doing endurance type conditioning the weight to use will vary from 2 to 8 percent of body weight.

    If you are doing plyometric exercises and you are working on explosive movements and the power aspect of the biomechanical movement, go for maximum weight, you are not after a ton of repetition.

    Keep in mind, you should never go over 10 to 12 percent of you body weight. Therefore if you weight 200 lbs, 20 - 24 lbs would be the maximum weight that you would use, in any drill or exercise.


    Why do you need 40 lbs if only 10%?
    Our 40 and 84 pound vest are utilized in body weight exercises (pull-ups, push-ups, dips, squats, lunges....) Also many individuals train at heavy weight increments for acclimation or work hardening training ( fire fighters, police and the military)

  9. Jack Rusher is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/23/2007 7:17pm


     Style: ti da shuai na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jhemsley
    I'd be really hesitatant about a big weight vest doing Parkour
    Many of the top Parkour guys use them in training. The idea isn't to wear the vest constantly, but to use it for certain plyometric exercises to improve explosiveness, and, for instance, one's vertical. This is one of the uses recommended on the Xvest site, re: basketball.

    I was thinking of picking up the higher capacity vest to allow me to use it for the above at 8-16 lbs, but also use it like a dip belt for some of the upper-body stuff I do on monkey bars and boulders (rock-climbing, especially bouldering, is another hobby).

    In terms of long term damage, I've often walked around with 30 lbs more muscle than I have now (just finished a weight cutting experiment), and I've done a number of long-haul treks with a ~40 lb rucksack (example: Florence to Vienna). This gives me some degree of sang froid with regards to the durability of my body under load.

    The various advice and perspectives given in this thread have convinced me to shoot for a smaller (say 20 lb max) vest, continue using the dip belt at the gym, and shop around for either a cheaper brand or a used Xvest.

    Thanks, guys.
    “Most people do not do, but take refuge in theory and talk, thinking that they will become good in this way” -- Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, II.4
  10. Jhemsley is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/24/2007 11:17am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jackrusher
    Many of the top Parkour guys use them in training. The idea isn't to wear the vest constantly, but to use it for certain plyometric exercises to improve explosiveness, and, for instance, one's vertical. This is one of the uses recommended on the Xvest site, re: basketball.

    I was thinking of picking up the higher capacity vest to allow me to use it for the above at 8-16 lbs, but also use it like a dip belt for some of the upper-body stuff I do on monkey bars and boulders (rock-climbing, especially bouldering, is another hobby).

    In terms of long term damage, I've often walked around with 30 lbs more muscle than I have now (just finished a weight cutting experiment), and I've done a number of long-haul treks with a ~40 lb rucksack (example: Florence to Vienna). This gives me some degree of sang froid with regards to the durability of my body under load.

    The various advice and perspectives given in this thread have convinced me to shoot for a smaller (say 20 lb max) vest, continue using the dip belt at the gym, and shop around for either a cheaper brand or a used Xvest.

    Thanks, guys.
    I don't think its problem to wear it with Parkour, if you stick with their guidelines per activity - 4% - 6% for Parkour and Bouldering, 10% - 12% for certain plyometric conditioning, and up to 40 lbs. for dips and pullups. If you do that, and just load it up for dips and such, I think the 40 lb. vest might be the way to go. My concern, and that of the other posters, was you said you wanted to use a 40 lb vest for Parkour, rather than using the vest at the appropriate level for Parkour. But I would always look to buy used for excercise equipment first, and just stay away from the low quality stuff.

    Good luck
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