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  1. Pandinha is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 10:09pm

    supporting memberhall of famestaff
     Style: Muay Thai & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Dr. William Wong says MMA is useless

    MMA, Ground fighting and Other Non Real life Combat Fads
    By: GM William Wong, ND, Ph.D., Member World Martial Arts Hall of Fame.

    This one is surely going to get me in trouble. But, as I’ve never been one to go with fads and current thinking on most anything and I’ve never been one to hold my tongue when I believe something is dead wrong - here goes!

    The ground fighting and mixed martial arts fad of the last 15 or so years is great for sport, TV watching and for some folks wagering on but I really have to say when it comes to the street or battleground it is near useless for actual combat against folks who are really trying to kill you and not just score points on you!

    In real combat the object of the game is to kill or incapacitate the enemy, then turn round and do it again, then turn round and do it once more for as many bad guys as you may be facing. In a street situation or battlefield there will likely be more than one opponent to neutralize (i.e. pc jargon for kill). So what happens if you take an opponent to the ground and proceed to put locks on him, choke him, punch, knee and other wise abuse him? I’ll tell you what happens: that particular guy you are working on may be in trouble but his fellow gang members, troopers or terrorists will knife, bayonet, rifle-butt, club or otherwise put a serious hurting on you because while you are playing “Hulk Hogan” you can only deal with one opponent. All of the bad guys friends are free to to do what ever they please to you. Have you ever thought about that? Real fighting is a multi-person melee and free for all - when you have Gooks coming through the wire and it’s hand-to-hand time, there are bad guys who are seemingly everywhere.

    The only folks who need to use take downs and ground fighting to subdue folks are cops; that’s their job. Citizens facing deadly force are under no compulsion to subdue and hold a criminal for the police! (That goes only for the US. For you folks in Europe, where there is no right to self defense and you’ll get arrested for furthering violence if you resist an attack, just lie there and get beaten-up as little as possible). Your only job is to make sure you and yours’ survive the encounter as best as you can manage.

    But you’ve been told by the Brazilian Ju Jitsu folks that their ground fighting arts were actually combat tested and based. Well yes but... All the stories about Brazilian Ju Jitsu doing so well in actual combat in the mob wars and so forth of Rio, need to be looked at in the context of the situations they found themselves in. A former cop and Olympic Judoka friend of mine told me that the Brazilians developed their form of Ju Jitsu when a Japanese Yakuza escaped prosecution in Japan, went to Brazil and taught a particular mob family there how to best sneak up on Rio cops and kill them. I guess that presents combat experience of sorts.

    Let’s look at real martial arts applied to actual combat situations to see what actually works. The best example and statistics we have to date on martial arts use in combat are those concerning the South Korean troops that served in the Vietnam war. The NVA and VC totally feared the Koreans. God bless them, the ROK’s were ruthless! The ROK’s are among the hardest hearted and toughest troops on the planet, ask anyone who’s served or fought with them. They are legends with almost entire divisions among the ROK Marines and Paras being made up of black belts. In Vietnam the only troops to consistently use their martial arts were the ROK’s. They used Korean style karate, and while Yodo (Korean Judo) is commonly taught, the military CQB techniques are entirely punch - kick in nature.

    In their 11 years of involvement in the war, with all their major operations and areas of responsibility their losses were only 5,000 killed and 11,000 wounded! Their kill ratio (how many of the enemy died for every one of their killed) was in the triple digits to one! With almost 60% of their kills involving only the use of hands or feet (punch, chop and kick) and no other weapons!!! That is real combat experience. This is also very telling of what actually works on the battlefield.

    Yes we all need to know how to do some wrestling. Getting out and up from a take down, a lock, some other technique are needed knowledge. But the thought that engagements can be won by taking an opponent down and working on him while on the ground ignores the realities of the street and battleground.


    http://www.drwong.us/FramelessPages/...rtsArticle.htm
    Quote Originally Posted by Sifu Rudy Abel
    "Just what makes a pure grappler think he can survive with an experienced striker. Especially if that striker isn't following any particular rule set and is well aware of what the grapplers strategies are".
  2. Munacra is offline
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    I Ducked Out on a Gong Sau

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 10:22pm


     Style: Gentleman Adventurer

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Someone tell this guy he needs to cite his sources.
  3. Munacra is offline
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    I Ducked Out on a Gong Sau

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 10:24pm


     Style: Gentleman Adventurer

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I mean he's got a phd and all.
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 10:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This article sadly shows once again human unlimited capacity for imbecility. These people make the street sound like a fucking mad max wasteland and bring the red herring of military confrontations as if battles in modern warfare were nothing but a mass orgy of H2H masturbatory mauling.

    Bleh and meh to the nth power.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 10:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Munacra
    Someone tell this guy he needs to cite his sources.
    Duh, he doesn't need to, dummy. He's from the Martial Arts Hall of Shame... err... Fame. Citing sources are for pussies and brawlers without honor, discipline, tradition and all that cool **** written in Kanji or Hanzi that real martial artist like to hang in walls to show their connection with Master Po.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. Vince Tortelli is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 10:40pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He's Wong.




    (Yeah, I know, IT WAS FUNNY TO ME DAMN IT!)
  7. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 10:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    60% of their "kills" were barehanded!? I smell bullshit. Even if this were true, then why did they not have weapons? This isn't some Chuck Norris fantasy, these guys were supposed to be armed soldiers.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  8. The Question is offline
    The Question's Avatar

    Octopussy!

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 10:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Striking/Grappling/Poking

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Come on guys, you're dealing with some guy who has goat's milk and cream of tartar available on his website. This level of idiocy is to be expected.
  9. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 10:43pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm more interested in the "Maeda was a yakuza hit man who taught the Gracies how to kill cops in Rio de Janiro." THAT'S STREET!
  10. Martial Cartoonist is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/19/2007 10:45pm


     Style: Shou Shu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    I like how none of the antimma guys ever mention muay thai.
    It counts as "traditional" to them, I'd think. That, and it appeared (I guess?) in martial arts movies and rocked stuntmen's faces.

    Edit: Also, yes, MMA is a sport in that the objective is to WIN--whether through tapout, KO, whatever, but it's the closest safe simulation to a real fight that any combat sport has shown us yet. I love boxing to death, but getting into fights in high school usually meant rolling around on the ground with the other guy more than standing up and exchanging blows.
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